BX2200 OEM Loader - Homework Assignment

[922MB]

There was an OEM loader on my BX2200 when I bought it (1000 hours) with a separate hydraulic pump "MacGyvered" to the front of the engine crank. I want this gone and to use the hydraulics core to the machine for the loader.

In addition, there was a hydraulic control on the rear of the machine to control the left/right orientation of a back blade . This is connected to the the machine via a block on the drivers side rear of the machine that appears to be a stock hydraulic takeoff. I no longer need a separate control for the back blade and would like to use this hydraulic feed for the OEM loader.

Now to the question. Are there some manuals or some such that I can do my homework/research so I can connect up the OEM loader to this existing hydraulic takeoff without breaking something?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

First how many hoses does the loader valve have?
If it's 6 you'll more than likely need a new valve.
If it's got 7 hoses you should be fine.

You can keep the rear control and add the loader spool (valve) to the circuit.

There is 3 hoses needed for it to work properly, Power, Power beyond, and Tank.

Does your rear block look like this?

 

[922MB]

Thanks for getting back to me.

Yes, the rear block looks like that. Albeit the plumbing on it looks like a MacGyver job as well. Small difference in that my block has two bolts attaching it to the machine. I only see one #160 in the above diagram. The line attachments appear the same.

The control valve for the loader has 6 hoses on it. Two for each of the arm lift and bucket curl controls. Plus one input from the pump and an output to the tank.

Is the 6 versus 7 hose configuration requirement related to "Power beyond" in your note? Kind of bypassing the spool control valve entirely if it's not in use?

I've attached some pictures.

1. The block on the back of the machine
2. The single spool control for the back blade
3/4. The spool control for the loader

 

[922MB]

I have no need now nor expect to have a need in the future for the rear hydraulic control. I think I'm just going to remove it make things simple.

As well, I had a wanted to replace the two stick arrangement for the loader so I already have another "joystick" type control. When reading the manual for it I came across a what appears to be an adapter I can get for the "Power Beyond" requirement.

I'm thinking I may be able to get this to work with that adapter on the new valve and running some new hydraulic lines up to the front of the machine.

 

[Russell King]

Read through this thread but get to the end diagram or description since the first few were incorrect diagrams.

Flow of Power Beyond Hydraulics

I have a B3200 with a power beyond port installed for a backhoe. I recently had a WR Long 3rd Function installed by my dealer. Now I’m adding (on my own) a two spool manual control valve for rear remotes. I have the piping laid out and just want to make sure there is no problem with my design...

www.orangetractortalks.com

Generally go from tractor block power out to power in on FEL valve, then the FEL valve will need a Power Beyond (PB) sleeve that goes to the rear remotes Power in, out of the rear remotes PB port back to the tractor block Power in port and on (internally) to the three point hitch valve and dumps back to sump. Then the FEL and rear remote valves will need a tank return line to the tank return on the tractor block. The Tank Return is T on the valves and is the only line that can be Teed together (with another Tank Return line)

Since you have the rear remotes installed I would not remove them but if you do remove them just connect the FEL valve to the three ports on the tractor block as described above.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I have no need now nor expect to have a need in the future for the rear hydraulic control. I think I'm just going to remove it make things simple.

As well, I had a wanted to replace the two stick arrangement for the loader so I already have another "joystick" type control. When reading the manual for it I came across a what appears to be an adapter I can get for the "Power Beyond" requirement.

I'm thinking I may be able to get this to work with that adapter on the new valve and running some new hydraulic lines up to the front of the machine.

View attachment 141826 View attachment 141827 View attachment 141828

People go to great lengths to add a rear remote on these tractors. Since you already have one I would leave it as is and daisy chain the new loader valve off it.

Dan

 

[922MB]

Thank you all for the input. I'm going to go through the "Flow of Power Beyond Hydraulics" thread to ensure I understand this.

Will be a few days but will post back a diagram of my plan.

Here's a parts question... In the diagram below it looks like there are hard lines that connect up to the LA211 loader in front. Any ideas what the part numbers are for the lines? Looks a lot cleaner than my current setup.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thank you all for the input. I'm going to go through the "Flow of Power Beyond Hydraulics" thread to ensure I understand this.

Will be a few days but will post back a diagram of my plan.

Here's a parts question... In the diagram below it looks like there are hard lines that connect up to the LA211 loader in front. Any ideas what the part numbers are for the lines? Looks a lot cleaner than my current setup. View attachment 141845

I believe that outlet block goes under the 3pt valve. It is not the same block you currently have. Its a little pricey at $180 and I am sure those hard libes are not inexoebsive. Three hoses to hook your valve into the exudting one is a lot cheaper and eadier to install....

Dan

 

[Mountainman]

You have the oem hydraulic block on the control valve. I marked your picture with whats what and am attaching pics of the factory setup of the hard lines. Like @TheOldHokie said it wouldn't be cheap to add those and what you have works fine but here they are for reference

If this link works heres the hard lines youd need

Kubota LA211 (FRONT LOADER) Parts Diagrams

Kubota Parts Catalog Lookup. Buy Kubota Parts Online & Save!

www.messicks.com

 

[Russell King]

People go to great lengths to add a rear remote on these tractors. Since you already have one I would leave it as is and daisy chain the new loader valve off it.

Dan

Curious about the “daisy chain the new loader valve off it” statement.

I see no reason that it matters if the FEL valve is first then the rear or the opposite (rear then FEL) but mostly see the FEL first. Is that just customary to go to FEL first or is there some priority selection being made? Would having the rear valve first make any significant difference in FEL operation?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Curious about the “daisy chain the new loader valve off it” statement.

I see no reason that it matters if the FEL valve is first then the rear or the opposite (rear then FEL) but mostly see the FEL first. Is that just customary to go to FEL first or is there some priority selection being made? Would having the rear valve first make any significant difference in FEL operation?

Thats a very insightful and interesting question thats loaded with subtleties. It probably deserves a thread of its own but here goes.

In an open center system the first (closest to pump) valve typically has "priority" in the sense that operating it interrupts flow to all downstream valves.

In the case at hand operating the remote valve diverts incoming pump flow to the remote cylinder and returns exhaust oil from the cylinder straight to tank via the tank port. That essentially cuts off (blocks) all downstream valves. The spool on the remote valve can be "feathered" to meter some of the incoming flow between the cylinder and the neutral (power beyond) circuit but because of the internal design of thrse types of valves the metering is typically pretty coarse. In practice you seldom if ever would want to operate the loader and rear remotes simultaneousy so its not really a concern.

Contrast that to the case where the single spool valve is being used for a grapple third function. Now you do want all three spools to work together and you start having control issues.

Now for the teaser. This is why Kubota loader valves typically have a serial rather than parallel spool on the boom circuit. The vast majority of multi-spool control valves are purely parallel I will let you think about that and formulate your own explanation of how that hybrid design changes the picture. Also give some thought to how an electric solenoid type valve in place of the manual valve plays in that scenario.


EDIT

Last second thought - the order of the valves in the OPs application is the matter of one hose. Its just as easy, maybe easier and "neater" to put the loader valve first.

Dan

 

[922MB]

Thats a very insightful and interesting question thats loaded with subtleties. It probably deserves a thread of its own but here goes.

In an open center system the first (closest to pump) valve typically has "priority" in the sense that operating it interrupts flow to all downstream valves.

In the case at hand operating the remote valve diverts incoming pump flow to the remote cylinder and returns exhaust oil from the cylinder straight to tank via the tank port. That essentially cuts off (blocks) all downstream valves. The spool on the remote valve can be "feathered" to meter some of the incoming flow between the cylinder and the neutral (power beyond) circuit but because of the internal design of thrse types of valves the metering is typically pretty coarse. In practice you seldom if ever would want to operate the loader and rear remotes simultaneousy so its not really a concern.

Contrast that to the case where the single spool valve is being used for a grapple third function. Now you do want all three spools to work together and you start having control issues.

Now for the teaser. This is why Kubota loader valves typically have a serial rather than parallel spool on the boom circuit. The vast majority of multi-spool control valves are purely parallel I will let you think about that and formulate your own explanation of how that hybrid design changes the picture. Also give some thought to how an electric solenoid type valve in place of the manual valve plays in that scenario.


EDIT

Last second thought - the order of the valves in the OPs application is the matter of one hose. Its just as easy, maybe easier and "neater" to put the loader valve first.

Dan

Great discussion. Thanks so much for the input.

While working this through in mind I was actually thinking of running to the FEL first as there is limited space for running lines on the machine. If I go with FEL first in the circuit I can run two lines up the left (drivers) side which is much less "busy" than the right. Then a single line on the right from FEL PB to the single spool control in the rear.

I'll end up replacing the power side line for single spool and adding the three new lines for the FEL. Power & Tank will be longer runs with a shorter one for FEL PB to single spool power.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Great discussion. Thanks so much for the input.

While working this through in mind I was actually thinking of running to the FEL first as there is limited space for running lines on the machine. If I go with FEL first in the circuit I can run two lines up the left (drivers) side which is much less "busy" than the right. Then a single line on the right from FEL PB to the single spool control in the rear.

I'll end up replacing the power side line for single spool and adding the three new lines for the FEL. Power & Tank will be longer runs with a shorter one for FEL PB to single spool power.

Exactly!! And please do me a favor - clean up that awful mess of fittings with the tee, water pipe nipple and cap. Looking at it is like fingernails on a chalkboard for me

Dan

 

[922MB]

View attachment 141849 You have the oem hydraulic block on the control valve. I marked your picture with whats what and am attaching pics of the factory setup of the hard lines. Like @TheOldHokie said it wouldn't be cheap to add those and what you have works fine but here they are for reference View attachment 141850 View attachment 141851

If this link works heres the hard lines youd need

Kubota LA211 (FRONT LOADER) Parts Diagrams

Kubota Parts Catalog Lookup. Buy Kubota Parts Online & Save!

www.messicks.com

Thanks. I'll price these lines out but I'm expecting hoses would be cheaper. Reason I was asking about these was there is limited space under the machine and these hard lines look like they get to the front of the machine without getting in the way of anything. Given I've got a control in the rear I'd only need two of the three and would use a hose from the FEL PB to the rear control.

I'm a little confused on the block markings you supplied. When getting educated in this thread, one of things that was mentioned is that the only line that can be teed is the tank line. Did I get this wrong?

When I trace the lines from the block to the existing spool control it tracks like this.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thanks. I'll price these lines out but I'm expecting hoses would be cheaper. Reason I was asking about these was there is limited space under the machine and these hard lines look like they get to the front of the machine without getting in the way of anything. Given I've got a control in the rear I'd only need two of the three and would use a hose from the FEL PB to the rear control.

I'm a little confused on the block markings you supplied. When getting educated in this thread, one of things that was mentioned is that the only line that can be teed is the tank line. Did I get this wrong?

When I trace the lines from the block to the existing spool control it tracks like this.

View attachment 141910

I am pretty sure that is not power beyond. That is a dump into ghe case. Tje block has power out and power return - just dobr knw ehich is which but its in the owners manusl. The manual is also quite clear - thre is no pressure relief ahead of the outlet block so you must use a loader valve with inlet relief and tank return. If you get it wrong you xan deadhead and probably destroy the pump.

Dan

 

[922MB]

Exactly!! And please do me a favor - clean up that awful mess of fittings with the tee, water pipe nipple and cap. Looking at it is like fingernails on a chalkboard for me

Dan

You and me both. You don't want to see the external pump Frankensteined to the front of the engine that currently drives the FEL. It'd drive you right over over the edge. The whole reason I'm asking about this stuff is to get it looking/working better.

That old loader is coming off, getting straightened, stripped, braced, and painted. New cylinders as well with the new control.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thanks. I'll price these lines out but I'm expecting hoses would be cheaper. Reason I was asking about these was there is limited space under the machine and these hard lines look like they get to the front of the machine without getting in the way of anything. Given I've got a control in the rear I'd only need two of the three and would use a hose from the FEL PB to the rear control.

I'm a little confused on the block markings you supplied. When getting educated in this thread, one of things that was mentioned is that the only line that can be teed is the tank line. Did I get this wrong?

When I trace the lines from the block to the existing spool control it tracks like this.

View attachment 141910

 

[922MB]

I am pretty sure that is not power beyond. That is a dump into ghe case. Tje block has power out and power return - just dobr knw ehich is which but its in the owners manusl. The manual is also quite clear - thre is no pressure relief ahead of the outlet block so you must use a loader valve with inlet relief and tank return. If you get it wrong you xan deadhead and probably destroy the pump.

Dan

Yikes... If I'm reading your comment correctly the existing control is not connected correctly! Based on what I see installed on the machine and from Mountainman's marking on my picture, the power comes from the bottom of the block. Both in agreement there. Sounds like the other two may be backwards as currently installed.

To confirm I'm reading this right from the above diagram it's "A" & "C" I'm to be concerned with.

"A" is referenced as "Return Port" and "C" is referenced as "From Implement (inlet)".

Which of A or C is the PB from the last control in the circuit?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Yikes... If I'm reading your comment correctly the existing control is not connected correctly! Based on what I see installed on the machine and from Mountainman's marking on my picture, the power comes from the bottom of the block. Both in agreement there. Sounds like the other two may be backwards.

Is a link to the manual that explains this stuff available somewhere here on the site?

You can download the Operator's and Workshop manuals from Kubotabooks.com

Dan

 

[Russell King]

@922MB
I think you are getting confused by a post from @Mountainman not @TheOldHokie

@Mountainman posted this. Notice that his POWER is pointing to the hose that is hiding and appears to go into the bottom of the small block.

@TheOldHokie posted this. A is Tank, B is POWER, C is Power Beyond from valve (power to the 3 point hitch). I see that these two diagrams are the same. I see your diagram as incorrect. Notice that while there is a TEE IN THE POWER BEYOND there is only one line into that TEE so it is really a 90 degree fitting in function. (More below)

I think I was the one that said not to use a TEE in anything except the tank return. Specifically “don't TEE two lines into one outlet port of a TEE except for tank returns” would be a better way to say that. Using a capped TEE in the other lines is OK but inviting someone to make a mistake.

I hope this clears it up and doesn’t make it worse.