FEL slowly goes down.

Bark

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L4701/FM2560LA765/BB2560Pittsburgh disk Titan P forks
Feb 18, 2020
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I know I cant be the first person to have an issue with this but after spending a lot of time searching I cant find a post or solution.
Today it was pallet forks and a 250 lb generator as the only weight on the FEL. I was working on the gen and noticed the loader was still slowly going down by itself (engine not running and not touching the controls). It goes down about two inches an hour. I can leave the 3pt up at the same time and it doesn't go down at all.
Its not really dangerous because I would never go under it but it is frustrating. Doesn't seem to matter how much weight is on it or how high it is, it just goes down slowly.
Since it goes down by itself without adjusting the tilt angle it is conceivable that someday something I have on it will slide off (like the generator I had on it today).
I see no leaks and the fluid level does not seem to have changed.
Does everybody's tractor do this or is it just me?
I will be calling the dealer on it but wanted to see if anybody else has this issue.
 

Dave_eng

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Likely you have internal oil leaks in one or two cylinders. Oil is slowly bypassing one or two piston seals.

Ever back drag with your forks..... an excellent way to damage bucket cylinders!

Some owners will think it is the loader valve. this is extremely rare. If your loader has quick couplers on the loader arm and bucket cylinders, disconnect the bucket hoses thus locking the cylinders. Now raise the loader arms with weight on the forks and see if the things still tilts forward. If it does ( which is most likely) you now know it is not a leaking control valve.

Taking the cylinders to a local independent hydraulics shop for rebuilding is the best repair route.

I have attached a cylinder test procedure if you are so inclined.

Dave
 

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RCW

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Some amount of leak-down can be expected under these circumstances, the machine not running and with a load on in it.

There are accepted tolerances of the amount of drop over time, and probably vary with tractor series/model.
 
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Henro

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Likely you have internal oil leaks in one or two cylinders. Oil is slowly bypassing one or two piston seals.

Ever back drag with your forks..... an excellent way to damage bucket cylinders!

Some owners will think it is the loader valve. this is extremely rare. If your loader has quick couplers on the loader arm and bucket cylinders, disconnect the bucket hoses thus locking the cylinders. Now raise the loader arms with weight on the forks and see if the things still tilts forward. If it does ( which is most likely) you now know it is not a leaking control valve.

Taking the cylinders to a local independent hydraulics shop for rebuilding is the best repair route.

I have attached a cylinder test procedure if you are so inclined.

Dave
Dave, I think the OP was referring to the lift arms going down, not the curl function.

Your suggestions would work for either function though. Might have to support the bucket with a jack (or something) to relieve pressure to separate the quick connects.

Myself, I doubt I would worry about 2 inches per hour drop Of the loader arms.

I have float on one of my rear remotes. The others have built in check valves. The control valve the has no check valve has let any cylinder I connect to it leak down. Both the valves and cylinders were installed new. The control valves that have check valves in them lock the cylinders in place for days and days(never noticed leak down)

Point is I would not write off leakage in the control valve as unlikely.

But again, a couple inches of leak down per hour would not bother me.
 
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dirtydeed

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I know I cant be the first person to have an issue with this but after spending a lot of time searching I cant find a post or solution.
Today it was pallet forks and a 250 lb generator as the only weight on the FEL. I was working on the gen and noticed the loader was still slowly going down by itself (engine not running and not touching the controls). It goes down about two inches an hour. I can leave the 3pt up at the same time and it doesn't go down at all.
Its not really dangerous because I would never go under it but it is frustrating. Doesn't seem to matter how much weight is on it or how high it is, it just goes down slowly.
Since it goes down by itself without adjusting the tilt angle it is conceivable that someday something I have on it will slide off (like the generator I had on it today).
I see no leaks and the fluid level does not seem to have changed.
Does everybody's tractor do this or is it just me?
I will be calling the dealer on it but wanted to see if anybody else has this issue.
Unfortunately, this is normal. They will leak down.

My only suggestion would be to prop a support under the loader if you need to keep it raised for a period of time when working on something in the raised position. Even a 2x4 would easily handle the weight of the loader with a generator on it.
 
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Donystoy

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Slow drift down is normal in my opinion especially after lots of use. When I was installing 10 x 10 foot wall sections for my barn, I was happy to have this drift down. Allowed me time to get off the tractor and align the wall section over the foundation bolts and let it slowly drop down. Sure helped when working alone.
 
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random

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Slow drift down is normal in my opinion especially after lots of use.
The hydraulics are a closed system, right? And the fluid heats up during use? If so, I would expect some pressure drop as it cools.
 

foobert

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The hydraulics are a closed system, right? And the fluid heats up during use? If so, I would expect some pressure drop as it cools.
Thermal expansion of hydraulic fluid would be a negligible change in volume compared to the displacement of 2” of cylinder movements.
 
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random

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Thermal expansion of hydraulic fluid would be a negligible change in volume compared to the displacement of 2” of cylinder movements.
Obviously, not something I've quantified in any way - just speculating :)
 
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Bark

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L4701/FM2560LA765/BB2560Pittsburgh disk Titan P forks
Feb 18, 2020
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Thanks for the reply's. I should have clarified. Tractor only has 40 hrs on it. It is the lift arms going down.
Haven't back dragged with it, mostly box blade and mowing work.
Last year I thought it was going down a little by itself while I was throwing wood into the bucket but wasn't really sure. This time, I started it just long enough to raise the FEL. I had the forks on and the generator raised off the ground with a funnel and can under it to catch the gas and oil I was draining out of it.
That's when I was able to clearly see and measure the FEL very very slowly going down.

If this is normal, I can live with it but I have a 1977 Chevy plow truck that I can leave the plow in the up position overnight and it wont drop a hair. Might have to get the dealer involved unless others have this same issue. Thanks for the help.
 

bx tractorjoe

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My 80 hour 8 month old l2501 loader tilt rams leak down with a lawnmower on a pallet.. the lift lift rams do not, that I've noticed..
 
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Bark

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L4701/FM2560LA765/BB2560Pittsburgh disk Titan P forks
Feb 18, 2020
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This is the response I got from my dealer.

"
This is a common question we get from customers regarding the drop rate of the front loader, rear 3-point hitch & backhoe – primarily the boom and stabilizers / outriggers on the backhoe. I just had this come up on Tuesday when I delivered a new tractor to an old friend here in the valley. The backhoe boom was unlocked and it moved a couple of inches in less than an hour as we were going over the operation of the new tractor. This is normal.

The rate of drop that you describe is normal for the front loader too. We have had many customers ask about this over the past 40 years. The hydraulic cylinders are designed with a certain percentage of leak down from the manufacturer and all of our loaders and backhoes slowly drop. We do experience a drop in the 3-point hitch too when there is a heavy implement that is raised but the drop is less than we experience on the loaders and backhoes.

So what you are seeing and experiencing is normal and there is no need to be concerned".

Its not a huge issue and I suppose if I ever have a critical need for it to stay up for a long period of time I can do what dirtydeed suggested and put a support under it (2X6 on a floor jack or something).
 

Henro

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This is the response I got from my dealer.

"
This is a common question we get from customers ...The hydraulic cylinders are designed with a certain percentage of leak down from the manufacturer...
This set off my BS alarm, but otherwise the reply tells the same story as many above. Slow leak down is pretty common...
 
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Bark

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L4701/FM2560LA765/BB2560Pittsburgh disk Titan P forks
Feb 18, 2020
202
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North CA
This set off my BS alarm, but otherwise the reply tells the same story as many above. Slow leak down is pretty common...
Yeah, I kind of wanted to get into a discussion with him. Something along the lines of ::"So you say Kubota sat down and engineered the cylinders to deliberately leak down?":::rolleyes:
Oh well, as long as mine isn't the only one doing it.
 

FloridaOrange

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BX23S
Apr 28, 2021
31
5
8
USA
Hey all, ive got a 2019 BX23s with hydraulic leakdown issues. The stablizer arms slowly lower over time. I have to park in a tight space, but every time i operate this machine, i must remember to raise the stabilizers, otherwise ill clip the wall beside it. It has been this way since purchased new, but the responses i had found in the blogosphere led me to believe it was normal. HOWEVER, i have since purchase a neglected and abused 40+ year old JD that i can raise the 3 pt with bush hog attached. Walk away for days at a time and absolutely no visible setting. What is the difference? A lot of weight on an old beat up machine at an awkward cantilevered angle vs very little weight on a new and pampered machine with the minimal load going almost straight down onto the pins, thus not really stressing the cylinder hydraulics. Can someone give a reasonable explanation as to why this would be an acceptable design if it is correct? Thanks.
 

Henro

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The old machine may have pilot operated check valves in the system where your BX almost certainly doesn’t.

Just a guess. But leakdown over time is not unusual when check valves are not used.
 

FloridaOrange

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BX23S
Apr 28, 2021
31
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8
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Sounds like aftermarket check valves could be useful. Any reason other than cost that would cause someone to not want to have them/it installed?
 

Henro

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Sounds like aftermarket check valves could be useful. Any reason other than cost that would cause someone to not want to have them/it installed?
For me the reason would be on a loader it doesn't matter....

Now on something like a tilt cylinder it does make a difference, since you would like the rear implement to remain where you put it to begin with.

Just my opinion. I guess wasting money if that was the only issue, it would not make any difference and installing pilot operated check valves would solve the issue, but that issue is a non issue for me personally. On a loader that is...:)
 

lugbolt

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ZG127S-54
Oct 15, 2015
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most hydraulic cylinders that are discussed here are double acting. Meaning in a nutshell they have two hose fittings, usually one on each end. Remember this and keep in mind how they work.

Inside the cylinder is a piston with a set of seals on it. The seals ride against the inner part of the cylinder itself (the barrel), and the piston rests on the ram rod where it may or may not be sealed. For this discussion I am not going to talk much about the gland (the end where the ram rod comes out) and you'll see why in a minute.

Not all cylinders are created equal....and for a lot of different reasons, the #1 being, cost to manufacture.

So I know we all want a cylinder that is perfectly sealed up and that is not physically possible and here is why. In order for it to be as sealed as posslble at the piston end, a set of tolerances have to be met-and tey have to be extremely tight. The clearance between the piston and the barrel must be held within a few microns. Clearance between the seal groove and the seal must be held very tight. Then the clearance between the ram rod and the piston itself must be held as tight as possible. To get these kinds of tolerances, you are looking at a very VERY labor intensive machining process, which costs a lot more than, for instance, a .001" tolerance. And for the record I don't know what the allowable tolerance is, just using a number for a simple example. To get them sealed up really well, they need to be in the hundred thousandths (.00000) range. Possible? Yes...keep reading.

Then you have different types of sealing systems, Kubota uses several types depending on the application of the cylinder. Many excavators use a much more complex set of seal systems on their cylinders, because that machinery has a completely different set of circumstances than a simple and highly competitive, and much more mass-produced, tractor. The gland end on most of the smaller tractors is fairly inexpensively designed, and it works fine for MOST tractor applications. Same for piston design. They can be designed to seal up a little better but it's going to cost and it's probably also going to be heavier. Remember, we have to tow these things sometimes too. And keep them small enough to be practical.


You take a BX, and let's say you are the manufacturer. You are buying the FEL lift cylinders for, say, $100 each from whoever makes them, or if you (Kubota) are actually making them, let's say $100 to make 'em-in their current configuration. So owners are griping about how they won't stay up after sitting for a few days, and you take note--let's say you (the kubota engineers) decide to make a cylinder that has a much better tolerance stack-up and uses a much more complex cylinder design that will hold for a week on end without issue--and this usually also requires a total change in the hydraulic system of the tractor itself. Now lets say those new style cylinders cost $500 each to make them, plus another $2500 to redesign the entire hydraulic system (grand total $3500)-and add that on top of what it already costs, let's say $25,000 and you add $3500 onto that, so $28,500. Your closest competitor's little baby tractor (1023E?) is also $25,000 but they kept their costs the same, so it's $3500 less expensive with all of the same features. If customers are shopping equipment, who is more likely to get the nod? The cheaper one or the more expensive one? Again, numbers used for example only!

Competition plays into it, as does potential warranty costs, regulations, designed usages, and a bunch of other stuff. Basically it comes down to cost vs the equipment giving an acceptable performance while still being able to last a reasonable amount of time without failure in average applications, while still supplying the manufacturer an acceptable profit margin.

and then we have to define "average usage". For some, that means pushing trees over with a bx. For others it means mowing 3 acres of 4' tall greenery with a push mower.

A tractor/loader/backhoe is a one-size-does-most tool. It does not do one particular j Meaning, those that use their bx's for bulldozers are exempt from "average". ob extremely well, but does a lot of things well enough. Sure you hoe can have a lot more digging power--or you can go buy a mini-ex for 4x the money and dig to your heart's content. Or if you want to push down 4' diamenter trees, a bx can probably do it but it'll take you several days of digging around it.....or you can save time and go buy yourself a used D6 and do it in 15 minutes, at a substantial cost. But can a D6 mow your yard with a belly mower? Can a mini-ex move small loads of dirt around your yard without tearing the yard up? That's where a tractor comes in. A crescent wrench can be a hammer, but not a very good one, yet it can turn a nut where the hammer can't do that very well. You get the idea.
 

lynnmor

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B2601-1
May 3, 2021
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You take a BX, and let's say you are the manufacturer. You are buying the FEL lift cylinders for, say, $100 each from whoever makes them, or if you (Kubota) are actually making them, let's say $100 to make 'em-in their current configuration. So owners are griping about how they won't stay up after sitting for a few days, and you take note--let's say you (the kubota engineers) decide to make a cylinder that has a much better tolerance stack-up and uses a much more complex cylinder design that will hold for a week on end without issue--and this usually also requires a total change in the hydraulic system of the tractor itself. Now lets say those new style cylinders cost $500 each to make them, plus another $2500 to redesign the entire hydraulic system (grand total $3500)-and add that on top of what it already costs, let's say $25,000 and you add $3500 onto that, so $28,500. Your closest competitor's little baby tractor (1023E?) is also $25,000 but they kept their costs the same, so it's $3500 less expensive with all of the same features. If customers are shopping equipment, who is more likely to get the nod? The cheaper one or the more expensive one? Again, numbers used for example only!
I think the real reason is that they saved about $.04 by using a cheaper seal.