Power beyond port vs tank port

Stomper

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Can someone please explain to me the difference between a valve with power beyond port and a valve with a tank port. I may be wrong but from my findings but power beyond ports are used when another hydraulic control valve is to be used down stream of another valve to supply hydraulic power to it. And a valve with a tank port sends the hydraulic fluid back to the tank to be pumped through the system again. What I dont understand is why cant the tank port on a hydraulic valve be used to feed the next valve in a system.
The reason I ask is, I had my local hydraulic shop source out an auto cycle log splitter valve for the fire wood processor I am building. It didnt come with power beyond but he told me his supplier told him there was another piece I could get to screw into the tank port on the valve that would give me power beyond capability with the valve. I asked him to explain but he was unsure also. Said he would find out but I havent heard from him yet
 

NoJacketRequired

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Power beyond typically is just a screw-in adapter. If adding a loader valve to a Kubota like yours, you need a 3-port valve, inlet, power beyond and tank return. The power beyond port gets tied back into the hydraulic block on the tractor where it provides high-pressure hydraulic flow to the 3-pt hitch.

In short, a tank return is a low pressure return line. A power beyond is a high pressure output to be used by the next device downstream.

Not sure where you're located, but Princess Auto has a pretty darned good selection of hydraulic stuff, and they do mail order, including custom hoses.
 

Stomper

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So it's just the routing of the fluid inside the valve body that creates low pressure return to the tank or keeps the high pressure for other hydaulic functions. So by adding this screw in adapter it blocks the "low" pressure ports so the exiting fliud stays at high pressure for further use.
 

torch

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Can someone please explain to me the difference between a valve with power beyond port and a valve with a tank port. I may be wrong but from my findings but power beyond ports are used when another hydraulic control valve is to be used down stream of another valve to supply hydraulic power to it. And a valve with a tank port sends the hydraulic fluid back to the tank to be pumped through the system again. What I dont understand is why cant the tank port on a hydraulic valve be used to feed the next valve in a system.
The reason I ask is, I had my local hydraulic shop source out an auto cycle log splitter valve for the fire wood processor I am building. It didnt come with power beyond but he told me his supplier told him there was another piece I could get to screw into the tank port on the valve that would give me power beyond capability with the valve. I asked him to explain but he was unsure also. Said he would find out but I havent heard from him yet
You are correct in that PB port feeds downstream hydraulics, but the T port is only to return fluid to the tank (or reservoir).

A convertible control will have two T ports when unconverted. If there are no downstream hydraulics, the PB adapter is not installed, either port can return fluid to the tank and the unused T port is simply plugged.

If there are downstream hydraulics, then the adapter is installed in one of them (and it will be specified which one must be used for PB). BOTH ports are then used. IE: you require 3 hoses instead of 2: one from the pump, one to the tank and one from PB to the downstream hydraulics.

When the spool valve(s) are in the neutral position, fluid flows from the pump and out the PB port. When the spool valve(s) are operated, fluid flows from the pump to one side of the cylinder(s) and the fluid from the other side of the cylinder(s) flows back to the tank through the T port.

If the load on the cylinder(s) is too great, the relief valve setting is exceeded and the relief valve bleeds the excess pressure from the pump port to the T port.

You cannot (well, should not) try to get away with only using 2 lines by connecting downstream hydraulics to the T port because of the risk of compounding relief valve settings. For example, let us say the downstream hydraulics are the 3ph cylinder. That relief valve is set for the maximum permissible pressure on the system -- say, 2,000 psi. And your log splitter relief valve is also set to 2,000psi. If both controls are inadvertently operated simultaneously, the pressure on the system could theoretically hit 4,000psi. Of course, something would break before the pressure got that high.

So it's just the routing of the fluid inside the valve body that creates low pressure return to the tank or keeps the high pressure for other hydaulic functions. So by adding this screw in adapter it blocks the "low" pressure ports so the exiting fliud stays at high pressure for further use.
No. This is an "open center" system. The fluid is always at low pressure until and unless a spool valve is operated because the center (neutral position) of the spool valve is connected to the tank line. There is no resistance to build pressure against. Pressure only builds when a cylinder is being operated.

"Closed center" systems are always at high pressure -- the pressure may even drop somewhat when a cylinder is operated. The center (neutral position) of the spool valve is solid, not connected to anything. When controls are in neutral, fluid returns to the tank through the relief valve so the pressure is always at the relief valve setting. Closed center systems do not require PB ports. Instead of being in series, closed center valves are connected in parallel to each other.

So: Open center = low pressure neutral, hydraulic functions in series, only one can be operated at a time.

Closed center = high pressure at all times, hydraulic functions in parallel, can operate all functions at once (although, each function will be slower).

Clear as mud?
 
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North Idaho Wolfman

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Torch did an excellent job explaining.
I just want to add that if you use the Tank port as a PB port and flow is restricted because of an obstruction, that valves pressure relief can not save the pump from dead heading, thus very possibly damaging the system.
 

Stomper

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Thanks for the explination Torch, I think I got it now, at least got it better. The valve I have has a T2 port that is plugged right now. Once I install the PB sleeve in the main T port, I would use the T2 port for the return back to tank. I have emailed the valve company's hydraulics technical support asking if this is the port I am to use.


You are correct in that PB port feeds downstream hydraulics, but the T port is only to return fluid to the tank (or reservoir).

A convertible control will have two T ports when unconverted. If there are no downstream hydraulics, the PB adapter is not installed, either port can return fluid to the tank and the unused T port is simply plugged.

If there are downstream hydraulics, then the adapter is installed in one of them (and it will be specified which one must be used for PB). BOTH ports are then used. IE: you require 3 hoses instead of 2: one from the pump, one to the tank and one from PB to the downstream hydraulics.

When the spool valve(s) are in the neutral position, fluid flows from the pump and out the PB port. When the spool valve(s) are operated, fluid flows from the pump to one side of the cylinder(s) and the fluid from the other side of the cylinder(s) flows back to the tank through the T port.

If the load on the cylinder(s) is too great, the relief valve setting is exceeded and the relief valve bleeds the excess pressure from the pump port to the T port.

You cannot (well, should not) try to get away with only using 2 lines by connecting downstream hydraulics to the T port because of the risk of compounding relief valve settings. For example, let us say the downstream hydraulics are the 3ph cylinder. That relief valve is set for the maximum permissible pressure on the system -- say, 2,000 psi. And your log splitter relief valve is also set to 2,000psi. If both controls are inadvertently operated simultaneously, the pressure on the system could theoretically hit 4,000psi. Of course, something would break before the pressure got that high.



No. This is an "open center" system. The fluid is always at low pressure until and unless a spool valve is operated because the center (neutral position) of the spool valve is connected to the tank line. There is no resistance to build pressure against. Pressure only builds when a cylinder is being operated.

"Closed center" systems are always at high pressure -- the pressure may even drop somewhat when a cylinder is operated. The center (neutral position) of the spool valve is solid, not connected to anything. When controls are in neutral, fluid returns to the tank through the relief valve so the pressure is always at the relief valve setting. Closed center systems do not require PB ports. Instead of being in series, closed center valves are connected in parallel to each other.

So: Open center = low pressure neutral, hydraulic functions in series, only one can be operated at a time.

Closed center = high pressure at all times, hydraulic functions in parallel, can operate all functions at once (although, each function will be slower).

Clear as mud?
 

torch

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Thanks for the explination Torch, I think I got it now, at least got it better. The valve I have has a T2 port that is plugged right now. Once I install the PB sleeve in the main T port, I would use the T2 port for the return back to tank. I have emailed the valve company's hydraulics technical support asking if this is the port I am to use.
I would definitely confirm that before trying it. The "T1" and "T2" designations rang a bell, and as you are in Canada, there's a good possibility that the supplier is Princess Auto, who carry "European Design by BLB" brand control valves that are marked that way.

Looking up the PB adapter available for the BLB valves from Princess Auto, I find this in the installation instructions:

Step 1.
Screw the power beyond adapter into the T2 port with 22 mm hex wrench and tighten to 18 ft. lbs.
When the Power Beyond Plug is installed a hose must be attached to the T1 port and run back to the reservoir. Failure to do this will cause the valve not to function properly.
I would HOPE that the valve block is designed in such a way that the adapter could not be screwed into the wrong port, but you are wise to check with the manufacturer if you are not sure.
 

Stomper

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The tech guy got back to me and confirmed that the power beyond goes into the T1 port and the T2 port is to go back to the tank. I would hope that the tech guy knows what he is talking about. I'll find out when the PB sleeve gets here.
The company I am dealing with is Wajax Industrial Components, it's the only place in town for hydraulic stuff. Their line of hydraulics components is Hy-Spec. I believe they are chinese made, but then most stuff is nowadays. It's really strange because I can't find any literature on any of the hy-spec stuff on the internet and the hy-spec auto cycle valve and pump I got from them never came with any. I asked for some on the valve and they gave me a hand drawn picture with some scribbled instructions they got from their supplier. Not very professional in my opinion.
Princess auto is a great place for stuff like this and I visit there every time I go to the city. Excelent to deal with. Maybe I should have got my stuff from them.
 

torch

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Sounds like Hy-Spec valves are whatever is cheapest at ChinaCo this month.

Hopefully the tech guy is up to speed on today's version. I would suggest assembling the PB as directed but before installing anything, with the valve in the neutral position, blow into the pump port and verify that the air is coming out the PB port. Just in case.
 

Swanny

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Question for the obvious experts in this thread, on a related topic: The 3rd function valve I purchased does not have a PB port on it. Its P port connects to the PB port on my loader valve, and then the tank port connects back to the PB port on the tractor, which of course feeds the 3 point. I’ve looked at several 3rd function valves from various companies(Summit, WR Long, etc.) and they all seem to be configured this way. The valves don’t have a relief built in, and they don’t have a PB port. So the questions are 1. With the info noted earlier in this thread, shouldn’t these 3rd function valves have a PB port and relief valve? 2. If not, then why would a rear remote valve need to have a PB port & relief? What’s the difference? Can’t seem to find this answer anywhere. My ultimate goal is to add a rear valve to control a top link cylinder. I already have the electric 3rd function valve for my grapple. So I’m just trying to determine the type/configuration of the valve I’ll need to get for my rear cylinder. Thanks in advance for any advice.
 

Mad Bubbler

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Hello everyone.

I have installed a 3rd function valve kit to operate a remote valve kit. I believe everything is installed correctly but when i did a test run i blew the gaskets on my bi-rotational pump.

Tractor = Kubota MX5100
Bucket = LA844
3rd Function Kit = W.R. Long
Remote Kit = Tractor Innovations

Can anyone confirm which port (B, C, D) shown in the photo below is the "Power Beyond Port" which is mentioned on the installation video of the 3rd Function Kit. My tractor manual uses different terminology.

Let me know if you need any other information.

Thanks for your help

Photo 1.jpg
Photo 2.jpg
Photo 3.jpg
 

torch

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It looks to me like you are trying to connect to the hydraulic supply, not the loader valve. The PB port will be on the loader valve and feeds the hose to port C on your drawing. If so, I think the hose currently connected to C needs to go to the P port on your 3rd function valve and the T port from the third function valve needs to go to C, according to the drawing at wrlong's website: https://www.wrlonginc.com/_files/ugd/701dd3_4fb5a989c44f4e06964d90dea466d811.pdf
(A and B go to the cylinder being controlled by the third function valve)
 
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torch

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It looks to me like you are trying to connect to the hydraulic supply, not the loader valve. The PB port will be on the loader valve and originally feeds the hose to port C on your drawing. If so, I think the hose currently connected to C needs to go to the P port on your 3rd function valve and the T port from the third function valve needs to go to C, according to the drawing at wrlong's website: https://www.wrlonginc.com/_files/ugd/701dd3_4fb5a989c44f4e06964d90dea466d811.pdf
(A and B go to the cylinder being controlled by the third function valve)
 
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Mad Bubbler

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It looks to me like you are trying to connect to the hydraulic supply, not the loader valve. The PB port will be on the loader valve and feeds the hose to port C on your drawing. If so, I think the hose currently connected to C needs to go to the P port on your 3rd function valve and the T port from the third function valve needs to go to C, according to the drawing at wrlong's website: https://www.wrlonginc.com/_files/ugd/701dd3_4fb5a989c44f4e06964d90dea466d811.pdf
(A and B go to the cylinder being controlled by the third function valve)


Hey Torch, Thanks for the quick reply. I have limited experience with hydraulics so I appreciate all your help.

You are correct, I am trying to connect to the hydraulic supply; basically insert the 3rd function into the sequence of valves (before or after the existing loader valves, doesn't matter to me).

Please confirm on my third photo: are you saying that the Orange Hose is the Power Beyond Port? (This is "Port B" shown in the manual on photo #1).

Thanks
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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B (top right) is Power
D ( bottom) is Tank
C (top left) is Power Beyond
 
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North Idaho Wolfman

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Are you running another valve after the WR Long Third function valve?
I'm talking about the valve with the star knob in the first picture.

Is that control part of the Motor control that your working with?
 
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