Farmer Revolt? - Right to Repair & JD

[Nicksacco]

Hi All-

A while ago we discussed the right to repair question and there was great discussion.
Last night I came across this video from Bloomberg on the topic and although I think the video is typical of the "magazine style" reporting, it did illustrate the ongoing and frustration and legal battles.
Go ahead, give yourself a raise! (this comment will become apparent once you see the video).

 

[Hunters gun]

Thank the Lord I don’t have to put up with that nonsense. All this computer garbage and F-150 EV crap.
It’s like you don’t own anything, but you still pay top dollar.
Scary part is they most likely remotely shut you down with a flip of a switch.
Its all about power and control.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

re: It’s like you don’t own anything, but you still pay top dollar.
yes, just like YOU do not own Windows or iOS..

re: Scary part is they most likely remotely shut you down with a flip of a switch.
'they' have had that ability for years (ONstar is just one example...)

re: Its all about power and control.

YES ! Give you the 'illusion' YOU have power, while they have all the control.

If you sit back, look at history, you'll see a pattern of people wanting others(or machines..) to do 'this and that'. slowly at first, then faster in the past 3 decades, a few have figured out how to give the people what they 'want' and make billions from it.

 

[GeoHorn]

That is an informative video. The argument is that the hardware is owned by the farmer…but the software is “licensed” to the farmer. It’s got valid arguments on both sides…and I learned a few things.
The JD argument that it has safety-issues like aviation-repairs is B.S. The operator of the equipment takes on the liability of the operation as soon as he buys it….so JD’s argument on the ”safety” issue is unworthy of belief.
The fact that “liberal” Massachusetts is the state that has legislated in favor of the consumer with a “right to repair” law is worth noticing.
The pay-raise comment is unrelated to the “right to repair”, IMO. The workers deserve to participate in the success and profits of the company if they’re part of the equation. The CEO pay is typical of large corporations these days…that‘s a complex problem.
Also, the recent economic “boom” one party often gets “credit” for has resulted in inflation the other party is getting blamed-for. The “boom” (driven by deregulation and tax-cuts for wealthy) has largely benefitted the “top” of the food chain…not others….and corporations took the cheap money big tax cuts gave and didn’t pass it along…but instead used it to buy-back their own stock….which reduced common shareholder influence but drove prices up benefitting large shareholders and executives.
I don’t buy “green and yellow”. I have orange.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hi All-

A while ago we discussed the right to repair question and there was great discussion.
Last night I came across this video from Bloomberg on the topic and although I think the video is typical of the "magazine style" reporting, it did illustrate the ongoing and frustration and legal battles.
Go ahead, give yourself a raise! (this comment will become apparent once you see the video).

I am afraid I did not learn much from that. It is a rehash of long standing debates. I have been in the software business a long time and here is my take.

Deere software is proprietary and will remain so just like the thousands of other proprietary software products in the world. OEMs are not likely to give that up and no court is going to make them because it is counter to long standing precedent on IP ownership and protection. In todays world you don't own proprietary software - you purchase a right to use license that may or may not have an expiry. and may or may not include update services.

The issue with machinery OEMs is going to boil down to how much the OEM can restrict access to software/hardware interface definitions, maintenance software, and service updates. I certainly hope the OEMs are forced to make far more of that public but don't hold your breath, End of life support is also going to become a sore point. Hardware is going to change and that means older versions of the software will require updates to work with new versions of old components. If you are not paying for software support your machine won't be compatible with replacement parts. And at some point the OEM is simply going to quit providing support for older software modules just like they quit providing new hard parts.

I think Deere and friends current policy is excessively restrictive and anti-competitive which will likely be its legal downfall. I do expect that ultimately machinery OEMs of all types will be forced to make some form of factory maintenance software available to the end user but that will likely come with a hefty price tag and reduced functionality. The car and truck industry is a good example of what that will probably look like. In a more perfect world OEMs would be forced to document and publish hardware and software interfaces and protocols allowing third parties to write competitive software products but I think that is unlikely.

Dan

 

[kubotafreak]

Fair enough point with the proprietary software. I just feel they should have made some entry level diagnostic uniform across the board like the auto industry. Users should have an ability to see when something is truly dealer level vs just a temp sensor bad. Smaller demand gives them more power to do what they want. Paying over 1000 dollars for a subscription puts you in the realm of dealer level diag, which is beyond what most want. They can have a universal system, and still keep their proprietary stuff for more access...

 

[NHSleddog]

....
The fact that “liberal” Massachusetts is the state that has legislated in favor of the consumer with a “right to repair” law is worth noticing.

Because Mass mechanics were PROVEN to be some of the biggest thieves in the nation. They probably learned it from the gov. Definitely worth noticing.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I don't disagree but you need to remember how the auto industry got to where they are. The diagnostics started as proprietary OEM factory software and interfaces. OBDII came later when CARB mandated it for CA emissions testing and EPA subsequently took that to the national level. And even today the electrical and communication protocol interface is public information but the vast majority of the traffic on the network is still a well protected proprietary secret. Getting access to that will still cost you thousands of dollars.

I expect the same sort of marginal public disclosure and pricing model will evolve on the off road equipment side of the house. Mandatory emissions inspections and warranty requirements may be the first lever used to pry things open and end users are likely to find that inspection thing onerous. Automobile owners certainly did.

Dan

 

[Henro]

I'm glad I do not have any equipment that fits the subject, and probably never will.

Still irritates me though when I read about what is going on...more than just borderline irritation!

 

[TheOldHokie]

I'm glad I do not have any equipment that fits the subject, and probably never will.

Before I offer a bet on that how old are you

Dan

 

[Henro]

Before I offer a bet on that how old are you

Dan

75 in February, and happy to accept birthday presents. PM me if needed...LOL

 

[TheOldHokie]

75 in February, and happy to accept birthday presents. PM me if needed...LOL

OK - might be a bad bet in your case. I once said I would never own a cellular phone but I was a lot younger at that time

Dan

 

[jyoutz]

I don't disagree but you need to remember how the auto industry got to where they are. The diagnostics started as proprietary OEM factory software and interfaces. OBDII came later when CARB mandated it for CA emissions testing and EPA subsequently took that to the national level. And even today the electrical and communication protocol interface is public information but the vast majority of the traffic on the network is still a well protected proprietary secret. Getting access to that will still cost you thousands of dollars.

I expect the same sort of marginal public disclosure and pricing model will evolve on the off road equipment side of the house. Mandatory emissions inspections and warranty requirements may be the first lever used to pry things open and end users are likely to find that inspection thing onerous. Automobile owners certainly did.

Dan

Considering the technology of new vehicles and the few old vehicles on the road, auto emissions testing is a concept that has outlived its purpose. I remember the need for this in the 1970s when dirty emissions and smoking vehicles was common.

 

[Nicksacco]

I thought this might pique your interests.

I spent most of my career in IT and learned a lot about how software is bought, maintained and purchased.
It was always interesting the Total Cost of Operation. The subscription model (licensing) has always been the king. It provides the software maker with steady income and allows the maker to continually upgrade and refine - that is until that software goes the way of obsolescence. Ugh. That's sometimes a cascade of other systems involved where integrations exist!!

I liken those systems and their requirements to the fancy tractors in this video. So, I've never operated one of these computer-driven, fly-by-wire tractors, or combines or anything like them. Are there multiple computer systems that are integrated? It doesn't even appear the farmer can use a diagnostic tool other than the onboard system.

I suppose unlike Windows or Linux operating systems, a farmer doesn't have the capability to adjust everything he needs? Is that what the deal is?
Certainly in the example given, if something goes ka-flooey on a Friday - you're dead in the water until Monday? That seems extreme and if true, no wonder the farmers are outraged!

 

[TheOldHokie]

I thought this might pique your interests.

I spent most of my career in IT and learned a lot about how software is bought, maintained and purchased.
It was always interesting the Total Cost of Operation. The subscription model (licensing) has always been the king. It provides the software maker with steady income and allows the maker to continually upgrade and refine - that is until that software goes the way of obsolescence. Ugh. That's sometimes a cascade of other systems involved where integrations exist!!

I liken those systems and their requirements to the fancy tractors in this video. So, I've never operated one of these computer-driven, fly-by-wire tractors, or combines or anything like them. Are there multiple computer systems that are integrated? It doesn't even appear the farmer can use a diagnostic tool other than the onboard system.

I suppose unlike Windows or Linux operating systems, a farmer doesn't have the capability to adjust everything he needs? Is that what the deal is?
Certainly in the example given, if something goes ka-flooey on a Friday - you're dead in the water until Monday? That seems extreme and if true, no wonder the farmers are outraged!

I think a good analogy is a Tesla EV in autonomous mode. Its amazing to watch the operator flipping back and forth between panels and monitors while the machine robotically goes about its job. There are obviously a multitude of computer systems communicating both inside and outside the vehicle. Some are simply performing the conventional engine management functions required to keep it running. Others are navigating by GPS, adjusting the drive line to ground conditions, and driving the machine while coordinating that with systems monitoring the harvest, soil conditions, and/or the application of chemicals,. The one that caught my attention was the data logging that transmits harvest data to third parties In this age of connectivity I should not have been surprised but I was. I bet there's also a whole bunch of back end analytics running somewhere that eats all of that data and spits out a new improved plan of operations, cost data, and revenue reports.

The problem is that when one or more of those systems develops a glitch the farmer can't diagnose and fix it without the assistance of the OEM. Unlike Windows or Linux there is no published programmer or API documentation or tools.

Dan

 

[foobert]

Considering the technology of new vehicles ..., auto emissions testing is a concept that has outlived its purpose.

<Volkswagen execs have entered the chat> We agree with this statement.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

I don't have a problem with the OEM 'hiding' important stuff ,like engine/tranny operation parameters BUT draw th eline at 'sensor' failures. Those NEED to be readily reported to the operator of the vehicle,either by a code number on the screen(IF that woks) or a separate 'OBD' port.
BTW , if your JD tractor fails at 401PM on a friday, you just pay JD for the tech to come out, as well as his travel time..... ka-ching !!
As for the display of 'bling', after 5 decades in the biz, that don't impress me,yawn.....
Ontario finally got rid of the 'E-tests', be nice if they did SAFETY tests, say every 5 years though.

 

[Daren Todd]

With no experience with deere tractors, I can't say if there is a display that you can access the codes.

I deal with many engines at work. I have the option of getting a diesel laptop, but decided to hold off for our location.

At $6000.00 for the laptop loaded with all the different brand oem software. Then the annual licensing fees. Well.... you get the picture.

All my equipment at work has a display that will give me the codes. The exception is our Doosan forklift. The forklift will give you the codes with a little persuasion, and looking up how to do it online. Then it's a matter of counting blinks of a light to get the code

I can handle most repairs by just looking up the codes. And Google is my best friend with this. Punch the code into the search bar, and it will tell me what it is. And depending on the forum I can get a pretty good idea of the fix as well.

The only time software is needed is programming injectors, ECM's, or calibrating something such as an EGR valve. It's also handy trying to determine which sensor is causing an issue if the code happens to be something where it's a calculation of multiple sensors. This last part isn't a deal breaker though since it's usually just a calculation between a couple sensors. So if one is bad, they usually recommend replacing both.

Laptop does have some handy diagnostics abilities. But this is used to determine a faulty fuel injector or something similar. But if your running those tests, then it's not a simple fix and your probably gonna be looking at some major down time anyway.

ECM can be programmed on the bench. Just provide the engine serial number and they can update payloads and set it up before being shipped.

I handle all the easy stuff at work without the software. I might have to get a dealer involved a few times a year. This is a fleet of 300 plus pieces of equipment.

Did I mention Google??? You can get diagrams, so if your hunting for a sensor, it can get you really darn close.

 

[GeoHorn]

OK - might be a bad bet in your case. I once said I would never own a cellular phone but I was a lot younger at that time

Dan

Yeah… when I was younger I was foolish also… But that was five minutes ago and I’m older/wiser now.

More seriously… I didn’t realize how fortunate I was at the time,…not to be able to justify a brand-new tractor/trailer/hog/blade/“zero-down” offering….. Instead I shopped for a used tractor and was VERY fortunate to stumble upon a -400 hr pre-tier basic utility machine that has few troublesome “safety” features and zero emissions.
I then discovered OTT and quickly realized the “blind squirrel” syndrome from which I’d benefitted.

 

[ACDII]

I watched that one earlier today, What stood out for me was all the information the systems gather and send to JD about yields and such. The farmers information is no longer just in his books, but in JD's servers as well. So not only do the systems not allow 3rd party access for repairs, but they gather information for marketing use without compensating the farmers. When your $150K combine just shuts down halfway through harvest on a Friday night with a storm coming and you need to harvest the field before it gets covered in snow, you won't get a tech out for quite some time and just for the tech to show it's $1000, plus hourly, plus diagnostic fees, plus parts, and if parts are not in stock, you a SOL.

Thats the gist of the whole issue right there. At least on our cars and truck, it throws a standard code that is industry wide standard, and there is plenty of information on the webs to self diagnose and repair it. The JD software diagnostics wont GIVE a code, but tell the operator to call the dealer for service. That is Bullshiznit of the highest level.