V1505 help with injection pump

[Ed187]

Ok so I have a Lincoln vantage welder with a v1505 I believe e2-bg. It’s 1800rpm. I was not getting fuel coming out of injector pump so i pulled the tank and inspected then inspected rubber lines. Replaced all inline filters. Replaced fuel pump.

Still no fueL out of ip.Found pumps online for 700.00 Seems extremely high. So I pulled the ip out. And took it apart. Had some corrosion Cleaned it all up with wire brush and replaced all the o rings. I reassembled the pump and installed Now I’m getting fuel squirting out of all the ip ports but still no start.

Do I need to time the injection pump? I found the info to set the timing in the manual. I just don’t understand why I would if I never turned the motor over with the pump out.

 

[Motion]

When's the last time this engine ran? Does it even try? Are you sure you're getting good fuel flow through the filter, mechanical pump, is the solenoid allowing fuel to flow into the injection pump is it popping out of each port (lines disconnected) are the lines clean? Were you careful reinstalling the pump i.e fork lever, start spring, etc.. Once the injector lines were reinstalled did get good fuel out of each? Are the glow plugs functioning properly? Is the motor spinning over good? Consider pulling a injector and hooking to one of the pump lines to see if you're getting a good spray, the other way is to try and test the pump delivery pressure. Have you or can you do a compression test? You shouldn't need to re-time if you installed the ICP correctly. Just trying give some ideas where to look. Good luck

 

[Motion]

Additionally if you found corrosion in the pump you may have fouled injectors. Insure you have a clean water free fuel supply.

 

[Ed187]

Hey motion. I really appreciate the detailed reply

1 its been down for over a year i popped lines off the top of injection pump and was getting no fuel squirt out of top of ip and had good fuel flow to the outlet side of fuel pump everything i found online said don't take ip apart so i just parked it but now both welders are down so its 911

2 no it does not try at all not much smoke coming out exhaust manual says the firing order is 1-3-4-2 took slow mo video of the ip squirting and that is order is spraying in good strong squirt outta all ports

3 yes filters are new and fuel pump is new. great flow to output side of fuel pump. tank full of new diesel

4 yes good strong flow to ip all the lines appear to be clear.

5 yes made sure the lever on ip is correctly seated in the rack and the return springs are back on correct.

6 yes got good pressure to injectors. i purged the air out to the top of injector.

7 glow plug are all functioning.

8 motor turns over no issue. good strong crank.

9 i will pull injectors and check to make sure i am getting good nozzle spray. i know they are all spraying fuel after i cranked on it with the glow plugs removed. all cylinders had air fuel mist spraying out.

10 i will have to dig around for compression tester .


also pulled the exhaust to make sure didn't get a bird or hornets nest blocking it.

 

[kubotafreak]

If your getting fuel up at the injectors you prob have enough pressure to start. The pump gets timing to crank position from the pump cam below it. I don't recommend moving the delivery valves. Put them in the exact same position as the paint marks If you do disassemble. Just make sure the kill solenoid is not pushing the rack closed, or the throttle forcing the same. The end of rack/throttle lever has some spring back to a neutral point. This is the idle fueling. Most I have seen with poor flow are due to a clog at the tank to lift pump. I wouldn't spend the exorbitant price for the oem electric lift pump. I have had good success with the 25$ ones. They pretty much work or don't. Overall your problem sounds like poor source flow, or the rack being stuck/partially closed.

 

[Ed187]

i agree i think im having a fuel flow issue. Bc i reckon it should be pumping smoke out exhaust if cranking it and the fuel is not combusting. Are you talking about the delivery valves in the top section of the Injection pump? Paint marks ? I will have a look at the control rack again. Inspect the springs. Pulling the injectors out now and i will hook them up outside the block reprime and check the spray nossle. Ya i most likley have a inline fuel pump around. How much pressure does it need. i can put a 5 gallon fuel can up high and start fuel flow thru the factory filter directing into injection pump.

 

[kubotafreak]

Agreed on the white unburnt fuel... Yes on the top of the injection pump, if you removed them. I usually don't ever tear into them. Just the rack, and pistons at the bottom. It only needs flow out of the lift pump, perhaps 4 psi. If you take the line off the IP, it should flow out a good stream... How about the rack kill solenoid, and fuel control springs? I wouldn't get too far into those injectors. I doubt they are the problem, unless you verified rust at the top of them. Have you tried starting it with the rack at the mid throttle position?

 

[Ed187]

yea the small spring I circled seems pretty weak if im looking at it right. I’m trying to avoid pulling injectors

 

[Ed187]

Well!!!! Got another spring on it. Got the rack moving as it should. Gravity fed a 5 gallon can of diesel to filter and direct to ip. Fires right up in a about 5-6 revs Purring like a kitten Then pop. Starts stuttering. Shut it down and open fuel arm door. And behind door number one. 800.00 dollars please. Not sure what happened I will pull the pump apart in am. I really appreciate yells help. Get a new pump on the way. Thanks

 

[drewzee87t]

how does the fuel cam look? That's a bummer. Looks like the roller/lifter ate something. Cam is probably unhappy also.

 

[Motion]

It looks like the roller froze, As Drewzee87t said check the cam for damage.

 

[kubotafreak]

Well!!!! Got another spring on it. Got the rack moving as it should. Gravity fed a 5 gallon can of diesel to filter and direct to ip. Fires right up in a about 5-6 revs Purring like a kitten Then pop. Starts stuttering. Shut it down and open fuel arm door. And behind door number one. 800.00 dollars please. Not sure what happened I will pull the pump apart in am. I really appreciate yells help. Get a new pump on the way. Thanks

Life right! One step forward two back. At least you have a direction now. I would think something seized inside the delivery piston. The cam slapped it, because it was not following.

 

[Ed187]

Ya pretty bitter sweet for sure. At least I know motor will run before I spend the money. Pulled the damaged port apart. And layed it out how I put it together. Figured something would be damaged but don’t see anything that would have cause it. I guess it just froze and something had to give. What yell thinking on the cam lobes. Verner caliper best I can think of ?

 

[kubotafreak]

If that didn't have to be hammered out, and the injector end did not dead head

Edit" Motion-(drewzee87t) is probably right and the roller seized. What does the cam look like?

 

[Motion]

On the cam I look for damage and scoring especially on the high point of the lobe. If any damage you'll need to consider a replacement. Was/is the roller on the lifter seized? If so try to determine the cause, you indicate that you found corrosion on the first tear down, were all of the rollers free upon reassembly?

 

[Motion]

Just rereading post #8 you indicated that you install another spring, was it the correct spring? how did you determine the old spring was weak? Based on the timeline you must have a parts distributor behind your house. In post #10 is that a crack in the pump assembly? the other picture not only shows the damaged roller metal was transferred to the side of the lifter and damage can be seen on milled face of the housing everything happened right in that area, crack, damaged lifter and seized roller. You really need to determine the cause before bolting in an $800.00 pump.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Sorry to say I'm a day late in posting this.

Sorry this happened to you but it's a learning experience for all that read!

I'm all about doing things yourself, butttt ...
Your first clue that you shouldn't have opened up the injection pump was the TAMPER PROOF SCREWS... they really do mean don't mess with the guts.
And FYI they are adjustments for specific timing on each port, that can only be set with a professional test bench.

I have to say in all my years I don't think I've ever seen a cracked Kubota IP housing.
That sucker seen some serious force put on it!
If you didn't flatten or damage the fuel cam you'll be really lucky, I wouldn't count on it.
You could very well have damaged the bearings or the governor too, that are all attached to the fuel cam.

Now why did this happen?
Could have been several different things, it's really a guessing game at this point.

I cringed when you said you opened it up, then I almost passed out when you said you took a wire brush to it.
If one of the wires got into the pump or parts, BINGO there is you cause for a lock up on a pump.
Really any material at all will do it, heck just scratching up the surfaces will do it.

Other cause would be improperly assembled pump, if a single part wasn't install correctly boom dead pump.
Did every single part end up back in the exact same location and the same exact orientation, there is timing marks inside the pumps and rack.

Changing a spring that's meant to be super soft didn't help your cause any either, either put the original spring back on it or get a NEW OEM spring.

Make sure you take all the shims off of the dead pump because you'll need them for the new pump as that's how you set the timing, and no the shim count does not change with a pump change, it would only change if you alter (deck mill) the block.

 

[Ed187]

Tamperproof!! Looks like a bullseye. Like a moth to the flame lol.

now that the dust has settled. I can say I would do the same thing over again. pulling things apart that are beyond my skill level is one of my favorite things to do. I have most def paid for some lessons and this is one. But 9/10 times I can get things fixed for next to nothing. And it’s very enjoyable. I had a lot of fun digging into pump and figuring it all out.

yes the pump housing is cracked

I fully understood going in that the pump had to be reassembled exactly the way it came apart and with internals in same port. And that no contaminates could get in the ports or be left on the parts.

I cleaned the ip housing up best I could then got 2 new clean oil drain pans.Put on rubber gloves and began disassembly into first pan. I layed out all the parts. Used a small wire brush to get the corrosion off the back of nozzle holder body. No wire brush on the machined parts. I used a toothbrush. Washed everything down with carb cleaner. Then changed my gloves and sprayed them down again and placed them into 2nd clean pan. Once everything was cleaned and dry I changed gloves and used gun oil to lubricate the parts.I then reassembled the pump very slowly it took about 2-3 hours to do that making sure everything was correct My biggest concern was getting the nozzle correctly orientated and seated properly. very confident the pump was reassembled correctly. Something interesting the timing shims where numbered. Everything I saw in manuals talked about 1 hole 2 hole etc for each hole being .30 or .5 degrees if I remember right. Now when I was putting the tamper proof screws back in I realized the torque pressure would affect the pressure I assume that’s what ya need a bench tester for. So pump is as clean as I can get it and put together I’m pretty sure correctly. Everything to this point I don’t think would have caused a critical failure.
Put the pump back on and had good strong spray streams outta ip nozzles Go to start machine and it won’t start but it’s not really smoking. Then. What I believe to be the critical error in my all day wrench a thon late in to the night. With my bare hands which where pretty dirty I removed the ip to inspect the springs and throttle arms. The smaller spring was not doing anything so I pulled it out and went digging thru a box with a bunch of different small springs. I got one that was very close to correct. Installed and it just put very slight tension on the arm. It was a good enough fit I went on. right before I put the ip back in I flipped it over and verified that all the nozzles where still seated correctly bc again I knew bad things would happen if the cam lobe pushed the nozzle and it was not seated. Unfortunately I did not think about my dirty hands I held onto the pump with one hand on top of the one that failed and pressed the rest down to check. I would almost guarantee that is where it all went wrong. I likely got something inside roller that caused it to stop spinning. Then the cam lobe continues to turn as the roller is not. Heat causes it to seize and rapid fire hits from cam lobe beat the pump outta of the way. I would almost guarantee that cam is bent. Looks like there’s one for 130.00. I will take a look at it tonight and take some measurements.

Sorry for the long response. I really appreciate all the help. I will keep going until it’s back up and running

 

[drewzee87t]

Was the start spring (the little weak spring you replaced) still there when you pulled it apart? Not that it really makes a difference, but maybe that spring got loose in there on one of your start/stop cycles and that's what it ate.

 

[Ed187]

Dang I didn’t even think about that. Just checked thou and both the springs are there.

Cam does not appear to be bent or damaged. I’m not really sure how to measure without having it out ? Any ideas on that?

Curious on the pump shims that set timing. So I understand you reuse your shims which means you have to take the bottom of the pump apart. What is it about the way the deck is milled that makes every one different and have different shims. And that is not marked on the machine any where?