Summary: L 5450 Electrical issue in starting circuit

[MilkyWay]

The novel, soon to be movie coming to a theater near you. Grin

Hi boys and girls! Long time no see. Lost my 'pooter two years ago along with most of my log-ins. As they say in the movies, with musical flare, " Heee's Baacckk!" Two days ago and without warning my super reliable little tractor would not start. This was not a cold start. I had shut it down long enough to hand spread a partial bucket of gravel, do a little brush cleanup and a tiny bit of loader work ETC. Then as stated above, without warning when it was time to start it, it was sort of like a dead battery except that I caught just a wisp of smoke from what turned out to be the area of the starter. HELLO! What is this? I also observed that the gauge lights dimmed while trying to start, much more than normal sort of like would occur with a dead battery. From instinct I stuck my nose in the wisp and sure enough it was acrid. Meaning it smelled like hot electrical wire insulation. I scratched my head wondering what could I have done to cause it, but nothing came to mind. It may have been a bad idea but I decided to try the starter again since I/we were sitting in the north forty, far from the shop. Sort of the same results but no doubt about the presence of smoke. One more try and it started with normal starter motor speed, if I remember correctly. Drove it to the shop and poked around without going into great efforts to locate problem. Scratched my head again, stared at it to see if that would help; evil eye and all! It didn't. It did however, while sitting at the shop (of course) start a few more times without issues. Went back to exact spot, well within a few feet shut off tractor to finish the project and it would not start again! I am not the superstitious type; the ground beneath the tractor is not haunted or cursed; just a coincidence it died in the same spot. Same observations as stated above but it finally did start and that was the last time it started. It is stranded outside the garage in the rain with a smart charger on the battery. The battery is disconnected because for all I know something could short and cause a fire even when not trying to start. Ideas?!

 

[kubotafreak]

If your asking, yes it sounds like your starter is fried. A rapp with a hammer will validate this theory. As long as the starter cables are not fried, consider yourself lucky. They get moisture in them which cause the windings to expand causing them to stick or short. As far as your superstition park in a different spot next time...

 

[random]

This is probably way crazy out there - but any chance there's a strong magnetic field in that area?

I'll let others with more knowledge of the mechanics address the less-crazy ideas as to what's going wrong.

 

[MilkyWay]

If your asking, yes it sounds like your starter is fried. A rapp with a hammer will validate this theory. As long as the starter cables are not fried, consider yourself lucky. They get moisture in them which cause the windings to expand causing them to stick or short. As far as your superstition park in a different spot next time...

Thanks kubotafreak! That is interesting info regarding the starter not liking to get wet. I will keep that in mind. I can tell you this, I have been down to/at the shop ever since I posted the message this AM looking at fuses, wiring or anything out of sorts as much as possible without side-panel removal ETC. I checked the battery status/charge state, and (having left the charger on batt. all night) as interpreted by my 3.75A max smart charger it said full charge. I came up here and got the Lil' to come and either try the starter/ignition or watch for smoke when I tried to start. I started it about a dozen times so far without _ANY_ smoke, starting fails or even draggy starter sounds. Now what?!
One other thing that you addressed above, I have some more work to do up at the spot where we nearly got stranded, but I will _NEVER_ shut the engine off at that exact same location again. Strike me with lightning if heaven forbid, I forget.

 

[MilkyWay]

This is probably way crazy out there - but any chance there's a strong magnetic field in that area?

I'll let others with more knowledge of the mechanics address the less-crazy ideas as to what's going wrong.

Random: Thanks for your input. You never know where alien-space-invaders are lurking, but it never crossed my mind to look to the heavens/sky to see if anything was amiss! I know of no other possible source for a strong or weak magnetic force, except of course for the strong and weak nuclear forces.

 

[kubotafreak]

Thanks kubotafreak! That is interesting info regarding the starter not liking to get wet. I will keep that in mind. I can tell you this, I have been down to/at the shop ever since I posted the message this AM looking at fuses, wiring or anything out of sorts as much as possible without side-panel removal ETC. I checked the battery status/charge state, and (having left the charger on batt. all night) as interpreted by my 3.75A max smart charger it said full charge. I came up here and got the Lil' to come and either try the starter/ignition or watch for smoke when I tried to start. I started it about a dozen times so far without _ANY_ smoke, starting fails or even draggy starter sounds. Now what?!
One other thing that you addressed above, I have some more work to do up at the spot where we nearly got stranded, but I will _NEVER_ shut the engine off at that exact same location again. Strike me with lightning if heaven forbid, I forget.

Might be getting heat soaked from the engine.

 

[random]

Random: Thanks for your input. You never know where alien-space-invaders are lurking, but it never crossed my mind to look to the heavens/sky to see if anything was amiss! I know of no other possible source for a strong or weak magnetic force, except of course for the strong and weak nuclear forces.

Not sure where I suggested aliens?

I was thinking more of a large iron deposit or something like that. VERY unlikely, but not unheard of, and I'm not counting Ancient Aliens. Hell, if it were my area, there's all sorts of crap buried here and there that nobody knows about.

 

[MilkyWay]

Not sure where I suggested aliens?

I was thinking more of a large iron deposit or something like that. VERY unlikely, but not unheard of, and I'm not counting Ancient Aliens. Hell, if it were my area, there's all sorts of crap buried here and there that nobody knows about.

You didn't even _imply_ alien-space-invaders, that one was on me. grin I simply stated that, (for all to ponder) that was the only potential source of a strong magnetic field that I could think of. None of my auto electronics has ever suffered maladies from driving over that spot at the head of, and actually in the center of my driveway. But, I will keep my eyes open!

 

[Jim L.]

My first question is: are you comfortable taking the starter apart and inspecting it yourself?

If not, then how about taking it to a starter / generator / motor shop for inspection?

Burning insulation is never a good sign. At some point this has to be inspected.

 

[Dave_eng]

Before deciding to pull the starter off and then apart, how about a thorough review of the most basic things.

Battery cables and their connections at each end of the two cables. A poor connection (such as the ground cable connection to the tractor) can produce a hot connection with a strong smell while not being able to pass enough current to turn the starter over.

Do you have any battery cable repair ends at the battery end of either + or - cables? These are often another source of high resistance connections.

I would avoid the hammer test on more modern starters as many have ceramic magnets inside which can easily be shattered.

If you have a multi meter and can follow well laid out test procedures, this one from DENSO for starter/battery circuits will quickly show you where the high resistance/voltage drop is occurring.

Dave

 

[rbargeron]

I haven't read the whole saga above - maybe somebody else has pointed this out.

There's a fusible link in the starting circuit that slowly corrodes and becomes marginal in current flow, working sometimes, not others. It's located just above the starter - and its been known to smoke and stink. A new one is a simple $7 plug-in. If it has quit completely, a loop of 14ga house wire will work as a temporary bypass untill a new one can be had.

 

[Russell King]

Take the side cover off so you can get a good look at the starter and wiring. I have had oil get onto the starter and wiring and smoke some if cranking for a while. Perhaps you can clean the connections at the battery of corrosion and eliminate any oily residue to see if that changes the situation at all.

 

[MilkyWay]

I haven't read the whole saga above - maybe somebody else has pointed this out.

There's a fusible link in the starting circuit that slowly corrodes and becomes marginal in current flow, working sometimes, not others. It's located just above the starter - and its been known to smoke and stink. A new one is a simple $7 plug-in. If it has quit completely, a loop of 14ga house wire will work as a temporary bypass untill a new one can be had.

Rob, Dave, Ben, Frank? Clyde?; I just remember that I confused you with someone else once in the (distant) past so I just wanted to make sure I covered all/some of the first names that I could think of. Grin
You are not going to believe this but after several hours of sitting at the shop with me intermittently starting, probably two dozen or more cold and warm starts without incident, including sitting for half an hour, idling at the head of my driveway while I worked on "_The Project_" a bit more, you know the one that stranded me in the first place, then parking at the shop once more, at exactly 16:30 ( that's 4:30PM for you land locked lads and lassies ) she FAILED, AGAIN! So I watched very closely while trying to start, and you are not going to believe this because I sure as hell did not believe it, but the smoke seems to be coming from the nasty, oil and/or grease soaked fuseable link located inboard of the starter, next to the engine block. Also, the smart charger, which turns out to be a AimTom 7.2A max unit is not real happy with attempts to get a consistent, and I mean ALWAYS identical start-up and charge indication for the out-of-circuit battery. So there. Give me a break! Even my bar clamp failed me today when it suddenly let go while I was using it to clamp a T-post while using a cut-off disk to put a sharp point on it for part of, you guessed it, "_THE PROJECT_" up top of the drive!!! The bar clamp head actually came loose from the bar! Anybody got any extra sharp cheddar cheese to go with my wine, err I mean whine?! My name is Jim W and I approved this message.

 

[MilkyWay]

Before deciding to pull the starter off and then apart, how about a thorough review of the most basic things....

Battery cables and their connections at each end of the two cables. A poor connection (such as the ground cable connection to the tractor) can produce a hot connection with a strong smell while not being able to pass enough current to turn the starter over.....

Thanks for your input Dave. Cable ends and terminal connections are sort of my minor specialty since electronics engineering, electronics option was my major at Southern Polly Tech College a,,,, err, umm,,,few years back. In fact while attending SPTC and interning with Atlanta Scientific; (no wait, not Atlanta Scientific it was Scientific Sumpin Sumpin) in Norcross GA a fellow electronics engineer was having a problem with his car starting and the “mechanic” he took it to for the problem had not given him any satisfaction. He did take my friends money, of course. Long story short I told him I could do two DMM tests and tell him if he had a bad or at least dead battery or a bad cable connection. Five minutes later he was thanking me as I found his problem with the first check. I put one of the DMM leads on the battery post, negative (?, doesn't matter) and the other DMM lead on the clamp connected to that same post. When he tried to start it and I got a 12Vdc drop between the post and the clamp I knew where and what the problem was. He could not believe it! He axed me “How can you put the test leads on the battery post and the clamp “attached” to that same post and find the problem”? Oh brother; engineers.
Also, I learned a lesson about smacking motors with anything when I destroyed a perfectly good but expensive windshield wiper motor with ceramic magnets in one of my 300ZX's many years ago. The problem turned out to be, guess what (?) a bad "connection" at the wire harness plug going to the wiper motor.

 

[Dave_eng]

Glad to hear you have the knowledge to look for voltage drops in poor connections.

Since you now report smoking in the area of the fusible link, the presence of the proper link and then its connection to the harness need to be verified.

The proper fusible link should be red in color designating 50 amps.

Dave

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Might want to consider changing it out to the newer MAXI fuse setup, much easier to know what's going on.

 

[MilkyWay]

Might want to consider changing it out to the newer MAXI fuse setup, much easier to know what's going on.

Whoops, too late to swap to MAXI fuse setup as the fusible link is on order from my brand new Messick's account. I do wish to learn more about that however, so I will pursue it. I sure am feeling guilty right now though. I have been reading the posts concerning TractorGals hydraulics issues, and, MAN she has her hands full! The reason I feel guilty is that I seem to have my tractor starting reliably every time so far with a little improvised repair. I wrapped a rubber band tightly around the harness connector that holds the link thereby putting tension on the fusible link contacts and it has started without incident all day, what maybe a dozen times. Several of which were warm start ups up at the haunted spot where "the project" is.

 

[MilkyWay]

Glad to hear you have the knowledge to look for voltage drops in poor connections.

Since you now report smoking in the area of the fusible link, the presence of the proper link and then its connection to the harness need to be verified.

The proper fusible link should be red in color designating 50 amps.

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Dave

Thanks DaveEng! It is red and the failure appears to be at the backside of the fusible link between the actual link and the connectors inside the male connector. I don't think the problem is with the female/harness side of the connector.