In search of a better truck for towing the M6060 and folding cutter.

[McMXi]

YELLS ACROSS HOUSE... How much money is in the safe! I need it NOW!

I already installed fancy new air bags from Midwest Military Equipment and have door seals and a block heater to install, so you have plenty of time. I have a rebuild kit for the cab hydraulic latch too.

Those bastards at MME are now selling a 100 gallon fuel tank for the M1078 without the need for any modifications.

 

[Russell King]

Now the curious logic question…

Why don’t you just use the M1078 to haul stuff around? I think you drove it on highways so it might be street legal? It may just be too large? Too slow?

But it is already in the stable so why not use it?

 

[JasonW]

I stumbled into this a while back and looked into the International 4900’s. Particularly the 5 speed manual with a two speed rear axle and air brakes. I’ve seen them in good shape around 15k-20k when I was looking. The idea got scrapped when looking at insurance rates, CDL and another vehicle when my F250 is plenty and comfortable to drive, loaded and unloaded.

I currently have a ‘16 F250 6.7 and recently upgraded to a 33’ gooseneck from a 24’ bumper pull. Power is not an issue. Also mine has 3.55 gears.

I would definitely try to tow with it first. Even some of the newer trucks. Don’t let the newer diesels sway you. You already found a way with your tractors if you know what I mean.

 

[jimh406]

Fwiw, if you buy a newer diesel, do find out the common issues for the brand you want to buy.

Many of the newer ones use the same injection pump that fails for an engine replacement and newer Cummins drop a bolt from their intake into their cylinders. I found that interesting .... see Banks YouTube videos for more info. Cummins isn't what it used to be.

After all of the complaining about the 6.0 and 6.4, the 6.7 had its own unique issue that caused catastrophic failures. All of the brands are all fixable, but be careful to look at the common issues.

I think a F450 with 4.30s would be great for those uses or go 3.73 and F350 if you will drive around empty. They are similar except F450s have 19.5s and turn much tighter, generally.

 

[McMXi]

Now the curious logic question…

Why don’t you just use the M1078 to haul stuff around? I think you drove it on highways so it might be street legal? It may just be too large? Too slow?

But it is already in the stable so why not use it?

I made a 3" receiver for it because the pintle hitch is too high for most standard trailers, but it's an unknown quantity in terms of pulling towing. It's rated for 5,000lb in the bed but I don't know how well it'll tow a big, loaded trailer, and gooseneck isn't an option. Also, I'd need to add one of those A/C units from MME. I kind of need a gooseneck trailer due to the weight distribution of the M6060 and RC3712 so I figured a truck capable of having ball in the bed would be better.

 

[McMXi]

I stumbled into this a while back and looked into the International 4900’s. Particularly the 5 speed manual with a two speed rear axle and air brakes. I’ve seen them in good shape around 15k-20k when I was looking. The idea got scrapped when looking at insurance rates, CDL and another vehicle when my F250 is plenty and comfortable to drive, loaded and unloaded.

I currently have a ‘16 F250 6.7 and recently upgraded to a 33’ gooseneck from a 24’ bumper pull. Power is not an issue. Also mine has 3.55 gears.

I would definitely try to tow with it first. Even some of the newer trucks. Don’t let the newer diesels sway you. You already found a way with your tractors if you know what I mean.

Thanks for the post. How much weight are you pulling with the F250 on that gooseneck trailer? The trailer must be around 6k so I'm certainly interested in what you're doing. You're right about getting around certain aspects of owning newer diesels and that's certainly something to think about.

 

[JasonW]

45692"]
Thanks for the post. How much weight are you pulling with the F250 on that gooseneck trailer? The trailer must be around 6k so I'm certainly interested in what you're doing. You're right about getting around certain aspects of owning newer diesels and that's certainly something to think about.
[/QUOTE]

When I first got my gooseneck it weighed 6,700lbs looking back at my notes. Now with tools/chains and a winch I’m not sure how much heavier it is now.
Just guessing the most I’ve put on it was probably 13k just on the trailer. It was my M6040, Side by side, 8’ disc and an old Dearborn plow.
Mine is a Big Tex 14GN 28+5 with the mega ramps.

 

[McMXi]

45692"]
When I first got my gooseneck it weighed 6,700lbs looking back at my notes. Now with tools/chains and a winch I’m not sure how much heavier it is now.
Just guessing the most I’ve put on it was probably 13k just on the trailer. It was my M6040, Side by side, 8’ disc and an old Dearborn plow.
Mine is a Big Tex 14GN 28+5 with the mega ramps.

Sounds like a really nice trailer and thanks for letting me know what you're towing. It's helpful to hear what people are using to pull loads, how much the load weighs and how effective their tow vehicle is pulling that load.

When I pulled the M6060 650 miles back from Sheridan, WY, the truck, trailer and tractor were around 19,500lb. There's a scale in Sheridan so I weighed the truck and then came back with the tractor and trailer and got a total weight. The F250 did ok over four mountain passes, but I could only maintain 55mph climbing the long 7% grade hill out of Missoula. Bear in mind that the tractor and trailer were only around 11,500lb and not even close to the weight of the M6060 and RC3712 sitting on a bigger trailer.

 

[McMXi]

If I understand it right you will need a CDL to drive it just because it has air brakes.
You will have to jump all those hoops too.

So I looked into this and there's no CDL requirement for air brakes. These require a CDL to operate.

1. Has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more
2. Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver
3. Is used to transport hazardous materials in quantities that require placarding

And commercial use of vehicles and vehicle combinations is different to private use. I made a flow chart a few years ago and posted it in a towing thread. I just searched and found it.

 

[JasonW]

Sounds like a really nice trailer and thanks for letting me know what you're towing. It's helpful to hear what people are using to pull loads, how much the load weighs and how effective their tow vehicle is pulling that load.

When I pulled the M6060 650 miles back from Sheridan, WY, the truck, trailer and tractor were around 19,500lb. There's a scale in Sheridan so I weighed the truck and then came back with the tractor and trailer and got a total weight. The F250 did ok over four mountain passes, but I could only maintain 55mph climbing the long 7% grade hill out of Missoula. Bear in mind that the tractor and trailer were only around 11,500lb and not even close to the weight of the M6060 and RC3712 sitting on a bigger trailer.

Adding my truck weight and trailer I was about 28,700lb gross. I can get current weights and more details if you’re interested as I have a truck scale just a few miles from my house.

We don’t have any mountains down here but some hills. I’ll ad what I like about my F250(6 speed 6R140) is the transmission shift logic and select shift function. I have used the manual mode some but prefer to just lock out the upper gears by using the + and - on the shifter while keeping it in drive.

I usually lock out 6th gear unless I’m on the interstate and sometimes lock out 5th depending how heavy I’m towing. Or just to limit it from upshifting at slower speeds, in town, coming up on an hill etc. And to help EGT’s, I have no trouble keeping them below 1100F. Usually they are under 1000F.

 

[BAP]

Many states require air brake endorsements on your license to operate a vehicle with air brakes. An endorsement is different than requiring a CDL. You said that the GCWR is 26,000, what is the GVW rating? Must be less than 26,000? Depending upon how it’s setup, may not be much more than a glorified 450 or 550. If you want more speed and power, swap the rear end out for a 2 speed or change transmission out to a 8LL.

 

[Bmyers]

So I looked into this and there's no CDL requirement for air brakes. These require a CDL to operate.

1. Has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more
2. Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver
3. Is used to transport hazardous materials in quantities that require placarding

And commercial use of vehicles and vehicle combinations is different to private use. I made a flow chart a few years ago and posted it in a towing thread. I just searched and found it.

View attachment 147636

I like your chart. I know the Illinois Farm Bureau puts out a nice document for farmers covering transportation requirements of both State and Federal laws.

Transportation Resources | Illinois Farm Bureau

Stay informed on transportation regulations impacting your farm business with Illinois Farm Bureau®'s "Rules for the Road" publication. Learn about exemptions, size and weight limits, license plate requirements, and ensure your farm vehicles are compliant when traveling.

www.ilfb.org

I have a class B non-cdl with air brakes. Initially had to get it to drive the fire trucks when returning from calls and on the State highway (can drive to a call without a licenses, can't drive back unless you have the proper licenses).

Since then we have had a couple of farm trucks over the years that I used the licenses for to be covered.

My brother-in-law has an F450 and my nephew bought a 31 ft trailer to tow behind it.

They have had really good luck with that setup. It has the 6.7 PowerStroke. We have used this setup to move my L3560 with the mower on it and it handles it nicely.

 

[Like Tractors]

I have an '02 F250 Lariat Super Duty 7.3L with a chip and programmer and it's a great truck for towing the boat, or trailers with reasonable loads, but last summer it kind of sucked at pulling the M6060 and RC3712 on the 22ft trailer. It got me out and back, and once the TC locked up in 3rd gear it pulled ok on flat ground but struggled on any significant hill. I thought about buying a newer 6.7L Ford Super Duty in a year or two but I'm not sure that I want to get into all of the emission stuff on a new diesel.

I have a 16ft PJ dump trailer which works well behind the F250, although when fully loaded with 7,500lb of firewood you definitely know it's there. So my thought the other day is why not buy a big dump truck with a dump bed and gooseneck ball and sell the dump trailer. I'd only use the truck to pull tractors and implements around, pick up firewood, pick up gravel and move dirt etc. I'd use the F250 for the boat, going into town, roadtrips, and pulling the smaller single axle dump trailer.

I saw an '01 F-650 2WD for sale that has a Cummins engine, dump bed and a manual 6-speed transmission with less than 45,500 miles on the odometer. The interior of the cab is very much like my F250 with many parts being interchangeable.

My good friend in Hawaii who has a successful towing and recovery business is telling me to buy something like a 2005 Peterbilt 330 Crew Cab Western Hauler but that's $63K and I think way more than I need. The F-650 below is under $30k and if I sell the dump trailer that would drop the price by $10k or so. So what say you? Is this a dumb idea or does it have some merit?

Here's the F-650.

View attachment 147592

View attachment 147593

View attachment 147591

View attachment 147594

View attachment 147595

The Cummins B series engine is a tough little power plant. In that model year, I believe it uses an electronic Bosch rotary injection pump and I believe they were rated at 235 HP in the pickups and possibly a little less in a medium duty application.

 

[dirtydeed]

Last comment...according to your flow chart (which I agree with) you need a Class A CDL. Work around is a farm exemption or personal use only. Check the State regs as the flowchart I believe only applies to "Commercial Vehicles".

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Whatever truck you buy, it's too small. J ust like tractors, you need a bigger one !

 

[McMXi]

Adding my truck weight and trailer I was about 28,700lb gross. I can get current weights and more details if you’re interested as I have a truck scale just a few miles from my house.

If you ever get the chance to jump on a scale I'd be very interested in what you find, and others too I'm sure.

I have little doubt that I'd be much happier towing with a later model 6.7L Ford but there's a significant jump in cost and complexity. I really like my '02 F250 and I could continue to fix things as they fail (which isn't often), and continue to use it as my daily driver, boat puller, trailer puller etc., but leave the really big stuff to something like an '01 F-650.

So there are three obvious paths here.

1. Replace the F250 with a more modern truck that would do everything I needed e.g. F350, F450 dually. New is in the $95k price range whereas a few years old with 75k to 100k miles will be in the $50k to $60k price range.

2. Figure out if the M1078 could work well for my needs with a bumper pull trailer coming in at 18,000lb to 20,000lb. Look at adding a gooseneck receiver to get better weight distribution of the tractor and cutter which puts a lot of weight behind the rear axle of the trailer on typical bumper pull tilt trailers. Also, look at adding a dump bed kit to the M1078 (MME sells one) so that I could sell the PJ 16ft dump trailer to help towards the cost of a 25ft + 5ft gooseneck trailer. I only have $5k or so invested in the M1078 with most of that being the shipping from Hawaii to Seattle. This approach would be the cheapest by far, but it's contingent on the M1078 being capable of pulling 20,000lb without any drama.

3. Keep the F250 and buy an older diesel truck such as the F-650 already mentioned. The bigger truck would only be used to haul tractors, implements, gravel, dirt and wood so might only do 1,000 miles per year. Budget here would be around $30k. The truck in question has a dump bed so if I sell the 16ft dump and roll that money into the cost of an F-650 or similar I'm looking at $20k or less.

 

[McMXi]

Many states require air brake endorsements on your license to operate a vehicle with air brakes. An endorsement is different than requiring a CDL. You said that the GCWR is 26,000, what is the GVW rating? Must be less than 26,000? Depending upon how it’s setup, may not be much more than a glorified 450 or 550. If you want more speed and power, swap the rear end out for a 2 speed or change transmission out to a 8LL.

I made a typo in an earlier post that @dirtydeed corrected. GVWR is 26,000lb and GCWR is 40,000lb. My friend in Hawaii who owns a towing and recovery business mentioned that a 6-speed manual transmission might be lacking due to the ratios being too far apart, and I get that, but I'm not going to be pulling big loads all over the country. This would be to get equipment around the valley with 50 to 100 mile roundtrips at the most.

 

[McMXi]

I like your chart. I know the Illinois Farm Bureau puts out a nice document for farmers covering transportation requirements of both State and Federal laws.

Transportation Resources | Illinois Farm Bureau

Stay informed on transportation regulations impacting your farm business with Illinois Farm Bureau®'s "Rules for the Road" publication. Learn about exemptions, size and weight limits, license plate requirements, and ensure your farm vehicles are compliant when traveling.

www.ilfb.org

I have a class B non-cdl with air brakes. Initially had to get it to drive the fire trucks when returning from calls and on the State highway (can drive to a call without a licenses, can't drive back unless you have the proper licenses).

Since then we have had a couple of farm trucks over the years that I used the licenses for to be covered.

My brother-in-law has an F450 and my nephew bought a 31 ft trailer to tow behind it.
View attachment 147641

They have had really good luck with that setup. It has the 6.7 PowerStroke. We have used this setup to move my L3560 with the mower on it and it handles it nicely.

Thanks for the feedback and the link. Awesome truck and trailer there! I like how much further back the rear axles are on gooseneck trailers with ramps. This is really what I need due to the length of the M6060 and RC3712.

 

[McMXi]

The Cummins B series engine is a tough little power plant. In that model year, I believe it uses an electronic Bosch rotary injection pump and I believe they were rated at 235 HP in the pickups and possibly a little less in a medium duty application.

I was hoping you'd jump in. I will absolutely defer to your expertise, so if you told me that an '01 F-650 for around $28k is a bad choice I'd drop the idea yesterday! The dealer lists 205hp at 2,500rpm but I don't know if that's correct. Ford-Trucks.com has specs listed for all '01 F250 and up trucks, and they show the Cummins engine to produce 185hp @ 2,300 rpm and 420 lb-ft @ ?. I don't know if the data is accurate or not, and even if it is, gearing of the rear end and transmission have a huge affect on how a vehicle drives, and more importantly tows.

 

[McMXi]

Last comment...according to your flow chart (which I agree with) you need a Class A CDL. Work around is a farm exemption or personal use only. Check the State regs as the flowchart I believe only applies to "Commercial Vehicles".

This would be for personal use only, or that's what I'd tell the MDT employee if I were instructed to stop at a scale.

Sorry for the string of posts but I wanted to respond to each point raised.