Sidekick RTV-XG850 backfiring / loss of power

[GreensvilleJay]

hmm..does it say ANYWHERE in the OWNER"S manual 'how to use /operation' as is 'must run for 20 minutes minimum' ?
Not that a guy WILL read the manual... but seriously

also the posting of 'white sludge' in the bottom.. that would be 'water' ??, as oil floats on top ??

anyone use Google to find similar problems with whatever make/model engine this is ??? Is is used elsewhere or JUST in a Kubota RTV ?

again, I'm curious.... like to get to the bottom of WHY things fail....

and I bet this thing was pricey ?

 

[jimh406]

You have to wonder how there isn't a "fix". There are a lot of ways to make an engine run hotter and warm up faster. 20 minutes seems completely arbitrary.

I rarely run my Ranger for 20 minutes in a session. Maybe their fix is going to EV.

Maybe the RTV engineers were the ones that had "issues" with the B3350 design.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

did a little googling, seems it's really a Subaru engine ? 54hp,head gasket is $110 cdn !
WHAT Subaru engine, any complaints in anything else it's sold in ??
wonder if there's a diesel 'drop-in' version ?
real part numbers would help. Kub CDA didn't list complete engine in their online parts.

if corporate says 20 minutes warm up, they'd put a computer in to prevent machine from going into gear ?

 

[mikester]

I submitted the following questions back to the dealer and we are waiting on a response from Kubota.
1. How much is owed and what is the breakdown and results for diagnostics performed?
2. I see "Mag side spark plug separated at threads." What does that mean? (Our spark plugs were just changed and installed per the torque specs provided earlier in this thread, so I am a little upset if they ruined one of the plugs from improper assembly.
3. If any repairs are made, what is the warranty period on that repair and is that a warranty through Kubota, or the dealership?

As a general comment, from the inspection report, it sounds like there is 1/2 quart of gas in our oil if the oil level is currently 1/2 quart high. I am astonished the engine is dumping that much gas into the engine and thinning the oil, causing premature failure. This is such an utter mess. The comical piece of this is - we asked for a quote on getting an entire engine replacement if we wanted to move away from the problematic Subaru motor - that quote was almost $12,000.

We bought this machine because Kubota has always been a symbol of reliability and quality. The fact that Kubota is basically leaving us out to dry on a 2-3 year old machine with under 400 hours on it is astonishing. We live on a small homestead with 15 acres. This machine has only been used with light upkeep of the property, but a lot of the usage is indeed short trips back and forth to get the mail, or to drop the kids off at the end of our 1/4 mile driveway each morning. Our machine indeed sees a lot of "short tripping", and this is primarily one of the reasons we went with a gas model over the diesel variant.

Shame on Kubota for not standing behind the product at this point.

There's tons of snowmobiles kicking around these days with lack of snow. Buy an older liquid cooled machine at the end of the season and pull the motor with primary clutch assembly.

 

[Sidekick]

I only know it is a Subaru engine that was made in early 2022 and think it is 48 HP. Here are the oil tests. one at 26.2 hours and the other from the 20 hour change. Both look pretty bad

This is basically the only information I was able to get from the dealer pertaining to the 10 weeks spent there. If there was a real fix they would not have returned it diluted again and said it is normal if short tripped. I think it may be crap pandemic built motors that some of us got stuck with.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Not only gas in the oil, WATER as well !!! HUGE RED FLAGS in those reports.

The only thing common with gas,water,oil is the head gasket and rings ??
Maybe I look at this odd, but either could easily 'push' gas and or water into the oil passages and into the sump ??

re: 26.2 hr. Is that really the total run time on the machine ? If so, engine isn't even really broken in.
I'd be contacting Subaru with engine numbers and asking a LOT of questions.

 

[Sidekick]

Not only gas in the oil, WATER as well !!! HUGE RED FLAGS in those reports.

The only thing common with gas,water,oil is the head gasket and rings ??
Maybe I look at this odd, but either could easily 'push' gas and or water into the oil passages and into the sump ??

re: 26.2 hr. Is that really the total run time on the machine ? If so, engine isn't even really broken in.
I'd be contacting Subaru with engine numbers and asking a LOT of questions.

Yes that is total hours. I am afraid to drive it. Kubota told me all questions go through the dealer and the dealer has not been able to get help from the Kubota technical support as they say it is normal for these machines and it runs pretty good. Only stumbles a little bit when I step on it hard. I feel totally betrayed by Kubota and it seems like they are hiding something especially seeing others with oil contamination issues. I am sick of dealing with how Kubota handles things like this. Basically a new machine I am afraid to use and cause engine damage.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Find the email for Kubota USA Corporate . Email them a short letter, list the details, include the 2 oil reports as attachments. You need someone at 'CEO level'.

You've already tried the bottom rung of the ladder, time to go to the top !

BTDT. I had a 'quirky' problem with a Microsoft product 3 decades ago, local office 'no help', so I wrote,yes wrote, a real letter, just ONE page, to Mr. Bill Gates. Snail mail to west coast and back, I expected something 3 weeks later. Four days out, I get a call from a VP, of software,says 'Bill handed me your letter, how can I help ?' 3 days later, DHL drops off a 40# box stuffed FULL of the 'technical info' I needed, so I KNOW writing to the 'top of the ladder' will get results. Be nice, explain the problem, concerns,and ask 'what are you going to do to fix this ?'

 

[Sidekick]

Find the email for Kubota USA Corporate . Email them a short letter, list the details, include the 2 oil reports as attachments. You need someone at 'CEO level'.

You've already tried the bottom rung of the ladder, time to go to the top !

BTDT. I had a 'quirky' problem with a Microsoft product 3 decades ago, local office 'no help', so I wrote,yes wrote, a real letter, just ONE page, to Mr. Bill Gates. Snail mail to west coast and back, I expected something 3 weeks later. Four days out, I get a call from a VP, of software,says 'Bill handed me your letter, how can I help ?' 3 days later, DHL drops off a 40# box stuffed FULL of the 'technical info' I needed, so I KNOW writing to the 'top of the ladder' will get results. Be nice, explain the problem, concerns,and ask 'what are you going to do to fix this ?'

Anyone have a higher up contact they would share. So far Kubota Cares was the only contact I found that replied.

I see a lot of Sidekicks for sale used for extremely high prices. Guess I could try selling it if they do nothing. With Kubota saying it's not an issue helps keep the value higher and it has been gone through by them to prove it.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

found this...

Directors and Senior Management | Corporate Information | Kubota Global Site

Kubota Corporation's board members and executive officers.

www.kubota.com

might be a starting place....

 

[Sidekick]

found this...

Directors and Senior Management | Corporate Information | Kubota Global Site

Kubota Corporation's board members and executive officers.

www.kubota.com

might be a starting place....

I looked there and couldn't find a way to contact any of them.
I just did some searching for info from Subaru about this engine and only could find this

"On October 2, 2017, Subaru Corporation withdrew from the small engine power product business and ceased the production and sale of multi-purpose engines, generators and pumps."

so it looks like our engines were probably assembled from old parts laying in warehouses by Kubota employees that weren't familiar with them. Could be why replacement parts for them are so expensive and hard to find. Mine was built early 2022 after the engine shortage shut down the line for months. Now wonder they are not interested in finding the root of the problem or redesigning faulty components like the intake manifold my mechanic mentioned. Guess I and others learn a new term by being loyal to Kubota " Short Tripping" to isolate them from responsibility.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

ok, 1st try ...

googled 'Yuichi Kitao contact information', few hits down.....

 

[Sidekick]

ok, 1st try ...

googled 'Yuichi Kitao contact information', few hits down.....

Thanks. I was able to find a Kubota portal for unsatisfied customers by using a link in that pdf. I will submit the serial number and see if they respond from higher up.

 

[D2Cat]

Anyone who has a legitimate complaint can use their local TV stations to go to bat for them. It's called something like "Call for Action". They take your story and contact someone who caused it or can remedy the problem. Most on the receiving end don't like the negative publicity and move to clear their name.

 

[catalyst]

We have now called and asked Kubota for "Good Will" support and they created a new case, citing the old case was denied/closed. They closed the original request because we were not the original purchaser, despite the unit having been under warranty.

Just calling and getting through to support was a challenge in itself. Our call was transferred ~5 times. This process has been so frustrating.

 

[D2Cat]

Let them know you are on a Kubota tractor forum with 14 kazillion members worldwide and the results of this case will be made available for all of them to see, and you appreciate all their help. Finish with a sentence that has an impact, "I trust you will guide yourself accordingly."

 

[Sidekick]

We have now called and asked Kubota for "Good Will" support and they created a new case, citing the old case was denied/closed. They closed the original request because we were not the original purchaser, despite the unit having been under warranty.

Just calling and getting through to support was a challenge in itself. Our call was transferred ~5 times. This process has been so frustrating.

Was that like mine where I finally got a case for contamination of the oil then they returned it after 10 weeks saying it is my fault for short tripping and there is nothing wrong. Did the original owner do the same thing and then dump it after Kubota said it was fine like I may have to do.

 

[catalyst]

Let them know you are on a Kubota tractor forum with 14 kazillion members worldwide and the results of this case will be made available for all of them to see, and you appreciate all their help. Finish with a sentence that has an impact, "I trust you will guide yourself accordingly."

I don't think they really care. We've made the dealer completely aware that i am posting updates, and I've sent into back the other way to them about oil contamination and whatnot. Kubota hasn't even asked to see the oil as far as I know. It is also now cross-posted at FB and a few other RTV/UTV forums.

We bought the XG-850 because of the support and reputation from our various other Kubota products. We actually sold a trouble-free Kawasaki mule to upgrade to the XG850 - we wanted 4x4 for the Maple Syrup season.

 

[lugbolt]

same problems the mule 4010 and sx/610 have

guys lug them, they idle a lot, and the engine oil doesn't get warm enough to boil off contaminants that are normal for all internal combustion engines. However the problem lies in the fact that the design of the engine is such that the engine OIL cannot warm up enough or fast enough for the types of users who do a lot of short trips and idling. THIS is why Polaris has an oil cooler on all of their 900/1000 engines-it's not so much a cooler as it is a oil temperature regulating device. It circulates coolant through the cooler, coolant warms up a LOT faster than oil, so it helps warm the oil sooner. I haven't seen a Polaris yet that puts a lot of gas or moisture in the oil.

Yes moisture is a byproduct of the combustion of gasoline. That's why you see STEAM out of tailipipes in the winter. That's water vapor from combustion which is condensing in the cool air.

The little Robin or subaru or Fuji engine (whatever they call it) on the sidekick is designed to run. Kubota saw a need for a more performance oriented SxS since so many people griped about how SLOOOOOOW the diesels are/were (and the 400/500) so they built the Sidekick to fill that need. You wanted a faster RTV, you got one.

On the Mule's, I spoke in depth with the enginerds who decided to use the lawn mower engine on them. Those engines are designed to run 3500 RPM for hours on end, and they do it perfectly. In the Mule application, they idle and they run sub 2000 RPM for most of their lives. The engine oil never gets hot if you run them slow, lug them, and/or make frequent short trips in cooler temperatures. So they'll sometimes milk the oil, they'll make oil (oil level rises for no apparent reason) and if you send a sample off to blackstone, you'll get high water content and high fuel content. BTDT. Kawasaki's solution? Throw it in low gear and run it against the governor. That way it runs exactly as the engine was intended to, 3500 RPM, against the governor, where it can make a little bit of heat in the oil. Folks who use them that way, they never (ever) have engine issues that aren't caused by something else (lack of maintenance or abuse usually).

The same thing applies to the sidekick. You have the wrong machine if you're gonna do a bunch of idling, lug it and/or run frequent short trips at low speeds. You can't be afraid to stand on the throttle every so often.

 

[Sidekick]

same problems the mule 4010 and sx/610 have

guys lug them, they idle a lot, and the engine oil doesn't get warm enough to boil off contaminants that are normal for all internal combustion engines. However the problem lies in the fact that the design of the engine is such that the engine OIL cannot warm up enough or fast enough for the types of users who do a lot of short trips and idling. THIS is why Polaris has an oil cooler on all of their 900/1000 engines-it's not so much a cooler as it is a oil temperature regulating device. It circulates coolant through the cooler, coolant warms up a LOT faster than oil, so it helps warm the oil sooner. I haven't seen a Polaris yet that puts a lot of gas or moisture in the oil.

Yes moisture is a byproduct of the combustion of gasoline. That's why you see STEAM out of tailipipes in the winter. That's water vapor from combustion which is condensing in the cool air.

The little Robin or subaru or Fuji engine (whatever they call it) on the sidekick is designed to run. Kubota saw a need for a more performance oriented SxS since so many people griped about how SLOOOOOOW the diesels are/were (and the 400/500) so they built the Sidekick to fill that need. You wanted a faster RTV, you got one.

On the Mule's, I spoke in depth with the enginerds who decided to use the lawn mower engine on them. Those engines are designed to run 3500 RPM for hours on end, and they do it perfectly. In the Mule application, they idle and they run sub 2000 RPM for most of their lives. The engine oil never gets hot if you run them slow, lug them, and/or make frequent short trips in cooler temperatures. So they'll sometimes milk the oil, they'll make oil (oil level rises for no apparent reason) and if you send a sample off to blackstone, you'll get high water content and high fuel content. BTDT. Kawasaki's solution? Throw it in low gear and run it against the governor. That way it runs exactly as the engine was intended to, 3500 RPM, against the governor, where it can make a little bit of heat in the oil. Folks who use them that way, they never (ever) have engine issues that aren't caused by something else (lack of maintenance or abuse usually).

The same thing applies to the sidekick. You have the wrong machine if you're gonna do a bunch of idling, lug it and/or run frequent short trips at low speeds. You can't be afraid to stand on the throttle every so often.

Just like you said. Some companies put the engineering in the machines to make them work for everyone as advertised, and some companies just throw stuff together from other manufacturers and advertise it for everyone but they are useless and junk for smaller homesteads because they just want to jump in a market fast. Companies like Kubota that do that should actually warn buyers before selling the machines if the machines have serious defects like this limiting the intended usage. It really is consumer fraud. It is sold as a worksite machine, far from a high performance machine many think it is.