The first b5100 Delorean
- Thread starter johngwalsh
- Start date
Slow down boys!
Always so quick with the grinders!
John, I'm working on posting some pics for you so hold off for a bit if you would...
Steve
Always so quick with the grinders!
John, I'm working on posting some pics for you so hold off for a bit if you would...
Steve
Rob
Member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
B6000DT / B7100DP /B8200DT/L225/Globe PTO Chipper/Lewis Backhoe/huxley TR66
$10 it wont come off by normal human means
I had a similar problem on an old wheelhorse that was kept was used on a beach in france, with all that salt water contact, it was never coming off.
I tried eveything known to man, without success, had to get the gas torch on it in the end.
I had a similar problem on an old wheelhorse that was kept was used on a beach in france, with all that salt water contact, it was never coming off.
I tried eveything known to man, without success, had to get the gas torch on it in the end.
Greetings John,
My hat's off to you regarding your beautiful work thus far!!! Amazing! I can only dream of being able to work sheet metal like that.
You might want to know that the PTO assembly you're about to cut off is as rare as hen's teeth. It is no longer available from Kubota and has been discontinued for a long time. You will need that assembly if you ever want to run anything from the front of the engine (think mid-mount mower) and that shaft in particular is VERY tough to replicate. It's not the shaft that is the tough part, it's the odd number of splines that is nigh impossible to find. I searched for a long time to find one...
What happens with these is they don't get greased as they should and either seize to the shaft and likely the crank just like you're dealing with. Sometimes the splines themselves bet buggered up from no grease, but one never knows until you get them apart.
You likely already know this, but I would not recommend prying against the front cover because you will likely crack it as its only made from aluminum.
I tried to remove my hub from the shaft for these pics but mine doesn't easily slide out either. I can feel it moving ever so slightly, so I know its not seized. I put it in the press and took it up to 4 tons of pressure and it still didn't want to come apart. Not sure if Kubota pressed it in hot, but I think that may be the case. Honestly, I didn't want to put more pressure on it and chance destroying it because there is nothing wrong with it.
It should come off the end of the crankshaft more easily and that is where I'd focus my effort. If you can remove or cut off the three bolts that hold the flange to the front pulley, you might be able to jury-rig something to pull the entire assembly straight off the end of the crankshaft. The other option would be use a bigger hammer...
The pics to follow show the front PTO assembly from a B7100 as well as what I believe to be the same crankshaft pulley and u-joint taken from a B9200. I hope they may be of some help.
Finally, I'm not able to see any roll pin or snap ring holding mine on either.
Again, save that front PTO assembly if you can!!!!!!
Kind regards,
Steve
My hat's off to you regarding your beautiful work thus far!!! Amazing! I can only dream of being able to work sheet metal like that.
You might want to know that the PTO assembly you're about to cut off is as rare as hen's teeth. It is no longer available from Kubota and has been discontinued for a long time. You will need that assembly if you ever want to run anything from the front of the engine (think mid-mount mower) and that shaft in particular is VERY tough to replicate. It's not the shaft that is the tough part, it's the odd number of splines that is nigh impossible to find. I searched for a long time to find one...
What happens with these is they don't get greased as they should and either seize to the shaft and likely the crank just like you're dealing with. Sometimes the splines themselves bet buggered up from no grease, but one never knows until you get them apart.
You likely already know this, but I would not recommend prying against the front cover because you will likely crack it as its only made from aluminum.
I tried to remove my hub from the shaft for these pics but mine doesn't easily slide out either. I can feel it moving ever so slightly, so I know its not seized. I put it in the press and took it up to 4 tons of pressure and it still didn't want to come apart. Not sure if Kubota pressed it in hot, but I think that may be the case. Honestly, I didn't want to put more pressure on it and chance destroying it because there is nothing wrong with it.
It should come off the end of the crankshaft more easily and that is where I'd focus my effort. If you can remove or cut off the three bolts that hold the flange to the front pulley, you might be able to jury-rig something to pull the entire assembly straight off the end of the crankshaft. The other option would be use a bigger hammer...
The pics to follow show the front PTO assembly from a B7100 as well as what I believe to be the same crankshaft pulley and u-joint taken from a B9200. I hope they may be of some help.
Finally, I'm not able to see any roll pin or snap ring holding mine on either.
Again, save that front PTO assembly if you can!!!!!!
Kind regards,
Steve
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Rob
Member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
B6000DT / B7100DP /B8200DT/L225/Globe PTO Chipper/Lewis Backhoe/huxley TR66
Just a thought , here is a method that has been known to work well with really stuborn cases.
As it is not really easy to get any sort of freeing solution into the splines from the pulley end of the shafts, why not try this. Very carefull drill a small pilot, lets say 2mm hole through the outter sleeve that is really rusted and just into the spined shaft of the pulley wheel, then making sure the hole is uppermost inject a heavy duty penatrating solution into the hole.check the hole every few hours and refill.
give the sleeve a gentle tap every now and again to progress the fluids penatration.
if the fluid keeps on disapearing then thats a good start.
it may help free it up, just may be off some help.
rob
As it is not really easy to get any sort of freeing solution into the splines from the pulley end of the shafts, why not try this. Very carefull drill a small pilot, lets say 2mm hole through the outter sleeve that is really rusted and just into the spined shaft of the pulley wheel, then making sure the hole is uppermost inject a heavy duty penatrating solution into the hole.check the hole every few hours and refill.
give the sleeve a gentle tap every now and again to progress the fluids penatration.
if the fluid keeps on disapearing then thats a good start.
it may help free it up, just may be off some help.
rob
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Rob
Member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
B6000DT / B7100DP /B8200DT/L225/Globe PTO Chipper/Lewis Backhoe/huxley TR66
yep , sound words of advise steve.
As you say, it worth a try, but i think the salt water corosion has made the problem a lot worse than with normal lack of lube of etc.
I see where you are coming from as for keeping the pto assembly undamaged , but, if thats the level of corosion etc on that splined shaft, what is the rest of the pto assembly going to be like, especailly the bearings etc.
I have the same device here, it came of a B7001 that i purchased, works well but i just dont use it.
handy to keep for a rainy day.
As you say, it worth a try, but i think the salt water corosion has made the problem a lot worse than with normal lack of lube of etc.
I see where you are coming from as for keeping the pto assembly undamaged , but, if thats the level of corosion etc on that splined shaft, what is the rest of the pto assembly going to be like, especailly the bearings etc.
I have the same device here, it came of a B7001 that i purchased, works well but i just dont use it.
handy to keep for a rainy day.
Rob,
Good idea with the pilot hole to get some lube in there! That might just work.
If not, I think I would use a rosebud on a big torch and just get the whole thing really hot. One would have to plan on replacing the front seal as it would most likely be ruined after. The heat shouldn't hurt anything, and it might just be enough to free it up. Not sure a propane torch would be hot enough though.
I found these exploded diagrams on the Kubota site. Doesn't look like there is anything holding them together besides either rust or metal shavings...
Hope these help!
Steve
Good idea with the pilot hole to get some lube in there! That might just work.
If not, I think I would use a rosebud on a big torch and just get the whole thing really hot. One would have to plan on replacing the front seal as it would most likely be ruined after. The heat shouldn't hurt anything, and it might just be enough to free it up. Not sure a propane torch would be hot enough though.
I found these exploded diagrams on the Kubota site. Doesn't look like there is anything holding them together besides either rust or metal shavings...
Hope these help!
Steve
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Rob,
If you'd be willing, it would be very interesting to know if your flanged hub will easily slide out from the end of the shaft. If it did, and we could get pics of it, it would give John a better idea of exactly what he's dealing with.
I'm now very curious about mine and would like to get it apart just to have a look. However, I really don't want to chance buggering it up...
Also of note, Kubota added a zerk fitting for greasing the splined end of the shaft on the B9310 parts diagram. Mine does not have that grease fitting. Perhaps they figured out that the lack of lube was causing the problem we are running into.
Thanks,
Steve
If you'd be willing, it would be very interesting to know if your flanged hub will easily slide out from the end of the shaft. If it did, and we could get pics of it, it would give John a better idea of exactly what he's dealing with.
I'm now very curious about mine and would like to get it apart just to have a look. However, I really don't want to chance buggering it up...
Also of note, Kubota added a zerk fitting for greasing the splined end of the shaft on the B9310 parts diagram. Mine does not have that grease fitting. Perhaps they figured out that the lack of lube was causing the problem we are running into.
Thanks,
Steve
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Rob
Member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
B6000DT / B7100DP /B8200DT/L225/Globe PTO Chipper/Lewis Backhoe/huxley TR66
Steve , the adapter boss slides onto the crankshaft pulley but is a very tight fit even with lube it needs a good tap to get it on the shaft, and even more to get it off and both sets of splines are perfect.
From where i am looking there are several issues going here, none off them are really ideal and all of them are connected.
1) the outer sleeve of the pto shaft appears to be very badly salt water/air coroded and looks to be rusted solid to the adapter boss's splined shaft.
2) The Adapter boss also looks to be in same condition as above and rusted to the crankhaft pulley wheel, bolts could be cut off or ground down in an attempt to get the pto shaft and adapter boss off in one peice.
But, there is a strong possibilty that the spined shaft of the adapter boss may be rusted solid to the crankshaft pulley shaft in the same way.
3) The previous problem may have a direct effect on the 3rd option.
If after cutting/grinding of the 3 bolts the boss cant be shifted, then the crankshaft pulley whel nut cant be removed , thus that cant be removed, leading to a possible replacement of the pulley wheel.
these are prob worse case, but you should still consider the options carefully on this, as things never go acording to plan in this life.
I think its going to be a crossed fingers job here
rob
From where i am looking there are several issues going here, none off them are really ideal and all of them are connected.
1) the outer sleeve of the pto shaft appears to be very badly salt water/air coroded and looks to be rusted solid to the adapter boss's splined shaft.
2) The Adapter boss also looks to be in same condition as above and rusted to the crankhaft pulley wheel, bolts could be cut off or ground down in an attempt to get the pto shaft and adapter boss off in one peice.
But, there is a strong possibilty that the spined shaft of the adapter boss may be rusted solid to the crankshaft pulley shaft in the same way.
3) The previous problem may have a direct effect on the 3rd option.
If after cutting/grinding of the 3 bolts the boss cant be shifted, then the crankshaft pulley whel nut cant be removed , thus that cant be removed, leading to a possible replacement of the pulley wheel.
these are prob worse case, but you should still consider the options carefully on this, as things never go acording to plan in this life.
I think its going to be a crossed fingers job here
rob
100% agree Rob.
The other obvious option would be to just leave it alone if it really doesn't have to come off although not sure running the engine with the splines not able to give a little bit is a good idea over the long-term.
I suppose cutting the shaft sleeve off would be the best solution if heat and lube won't work although it'd be a bummer to junk the shaft. Since the adapter boss is hollow in the center, it would allow a puller to used to get a straight pull against the crankshaft. Add a bit of heat, and I bet it will come off.
Perhaps an option would be to weld three bolts to the adapter boss flange so it could be pulled straight away. Otherwise there is nothing to grip the adapter boss and, as you mentioned, one can't access the crank pulley nut that is sitting under the adapter boss. I suppose the other option would be drill and tap three new holes for the puller...
Dave, that is a great idea! I'm going to rig up a similar rig at this end as that will prove very handy. Thanks for sharing it!
Steve
The other obvious option would be to just leave it alone if it really doesn't have to come off although not sure running the engine with the splines not able to give a little bit is a good idea over the long-term.
I suppose cutting the shaft sleeve off would be the best solution if heat and lube won't work although it'd be a bummer to junk the shaft. Since the adapter boss is hollow in the center, it would allow a puller to used to get a straight pull against the crankshaft. Add a bit of heat, and I bet it will come off.
Perhaps an option would be to weld three bolts to the adapter boss flange so it could be pulled straight away. Otherwise there is nothing to grip the adapter boss and, as you mentioned, one can't access the crank pulley nut that is sitting under the adapter boss. I suppose the other option would be drill and tap three new holes for the puller...
Dave, that is a great idea! I'm going to rig up a similar rig at this end as that will prove very handy. Thanks for sharing it!
Steve
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Rob
Member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
B6000DT / B7100DP /B8200DT/L225/Globe PTO Chipper/Lewis Backhoe/huxley TR66
yep, you read my mind steve , if it aint broke, don't fix it.
Unless you are me, in which case , if it aint broke, still take it apart anyway just for the hell of it
rob
Unless you are me, in which case , if it aint broke, still take it apart anyway just for the hell of it
rob
LOL! Yeah, we're both the same....
Of course now that I know mine should come apart I'm thinking it obviously needs grease in there... sigh...
I just went back and took another look at John's pics. I think I'd rig up a couple of small bottle jacks on opposite sides of the adapter hub and press from the adapter hub flange to someplace on the shaft (I'd weld something onto it). Then heat that sleeve red hot and see what happens. I'm betting it would pop loose...
Of course now that I know mine should come apart I'm thinking it obviously needs grease in there... sigh...
I just went back and took another look at John's pics. I think I'd rig up a couple of small bottle jacks on opposite sides of the adapter hub and press from the adapter hub flange to someplace on the shaft (I'd weld something onto it). Then heat that sleeve red hot and see what happens. I'm betting it would pop loose...
Thank so much for all the advice and info guys.Rob great idea with drilling the lube ports.I have done this by 2 at 180° from each other..the good news is that its going in.Ill do this for a few days as i try get my hands on a set of bottles ill keep ye posted.Steve thanks for the pics.hard to believe it was supposed to look like that originally.If it all goes seriously wrong i can cut the shaft after the spline..use a pullers to get collar off and turn down a new shaft to weld on to the hold collar..more work than i want but hay I've gone this far why stop.
As we are chatting what is yer feeling on sodablasting engines.Im sending a few body parts to get done including gearbox..i feel i can tape all the ports up fairly well....debating doing the engine but im nervous of something going very wrong.
As we are chatting what is yer feeling on sodablasting engines.Im sending a few body parts to get done including gearbox..i feel i can tape all the ports up fairly well....debating doing the engine but im nervous of something going very wrong.
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I was looking at this splined shaft again and was hoping to see the 3 bolts inside the pulley so as i could take it off complete ,but there was nothing not even the rusted remains of bolts.I took a photo looking into the pulley.I can just about make out a tab of some sorts in one of the 3 holes on the pulley. I tried to move it with a screw driver but it doesnt budge.Maybe its heat shrinked on.
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I have kept going on my stainless revival project.I redid the pedals and finished off the welding on my axle before and after pic's.
Attachments
John,
There is nothing that says it was originally bolted on. The crank splines are uniform all the way around (no flat or keyway) so the hub could have been fitted in any orientation. Since the clutch assembly bolts to the frame in the front, it would trap the shaft and the bolts would not really be necessary.
The other tidbit that I thought of is, there is empty space in front of the hub at the shaft end of the collar. If you go back and look at my pics, the hub is hollow. When I was pressing, I supported the hub flange and used a brass drift to reach down through the hub to press directly against the shaft. (hope this is making sense) What I'm getting at is "front" area of the collar (nearest the actual shaft) has quite a bit of room in it. It might be worth continuing to pump penetrating oil into that area until it won't take anymore in hope that it will migrate to the splines all the way around.
Nice work on the pedals and front pivot!
Steve
There is nothing that says it was originally bolted on. The crank splines are uniform all the way around (no flat or keyway) so the hub could have been fitted in any orientation. Since the clutch assembly bolts to the frame in the front, it would trap the shaft and the bolts would not really be necessary.
The other tidbit that I thought of is, there is empty space in front of the hub at the shaft end of the collar. If you go back and look at my pics, the hub is hollow. When I was pressing, I supported the hub flange and used a brass drift to reach down through the hub to press directly against the shaft. (hope this is making sense) What I'm getting at is "front" area of the collar (nearest the actual shaft) has quite a bit of room in it. It might be worth continuing to pump penetrating oil into that area until it won't take anymore in hope that it will migrate to the splines all the way around.
Nice work on the pedals and front pivot!
Steve
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