Running off road diesel in your truck...

[D2Cat]

I copied this off of a cattle forum.

You always hear stories of what will happen. This was posted 10/18/15.

"Just a note to anyone that might be using Dyed Diesel fuel in their onroad trucks. Or any trucks that might be licensed. DON'T take a chance.

Back in August my truck broke down and a rollback hauled it back here from KY and dropped it off at a garage to have a transmission replaced. The next day the DOT checked several trucks there and I had red fuel in mine. The truck was not seen on the road and it could not be driven at the time but it doesnt seem to matter becaused it was licensed. Got the fine yesterday and it was $2,000. The truck had a 35 gal tank and that was $1,000 and I had an empty farm tank on the back that is 27 gal and because it was a storage tank (even though it was empty and had been for months) I get charged another $1,000 for that.

Surely I am not the only dummy on here that has been caught. Worst thing is that was the first tank of red fuel I had ued in probably 10 years."

 

[Tooljunkie]

Up here its farm fuel,as long as its used in the process of farming it can be on the road. It based on farm derived income which was 75% at one time. Dont know what it is now. Gas thief got nailed for stealing gas, lawyer got charge down to running purple gas on highway.
One farmer here uses clear fuel, as its for everything. Its still a tax write off.

 

[skeets]

There is a young man here that runs, I should say ran a built up dodge 1 ton.. It was built,,,, propane kit, NO2 kit, the whole mine yard and it would run and smoke the tires off the 1 ton no doubt,,, He got stupid and got caught, and they dipped his tank,,, OHOH red dyed fuel from Daddy's tank on the farm. I dont know what the total fines came out to but he did have to sell the truck, to pay then I do know that, and the Old Man paid the rest of the fines,, and stupid son is working his ass off repaying Dad,, So yeah it happens, and of course it depends on the cop that stops you and dips your tank I would guess. As with anytime the PoPo stops you, get stupid and it comes back to haunt you and sometimes it really hurts

 

[forceten]

We have an oil company here in NJ. We see people all the time asking us to deliver heating oil/off road diesel (dyed) to drums and tanks that you can clearly see they are using for on road vehicles.

They try to give us this story or that, but we tell them we don't care what you do with the fuel. Its marked on our delivery tickets of what we are giving you. Its also marked dyed fuel, penalty for on road use. We can't get in trouble for anything we are only putting it into storage tanks not the vehicles itself.

I tell people small pickup trucks and such will never get a DOT check or anything but what happens if you get into an accident. You pop your tank or lines and a trooper sees red dye all over the road - you be in big trouble.

They check our trucks all of the time at the oil terminals where we pick up fuel, state police for the trucks themselves and paperwork, but get this its IRS agents checking the fuel for red dye. They do litmus tests on the tanks and also check the engine.

For us it's a $10,000 fine per vehicle caught. Being the fuel company they come down harder on use then you guys. Would be too easy to fuel ourselves from our own dyed fuel.

One oil company about 20 years ago got caught. I thought they were pretty smart (for being thieves). Each gallon of on road clear diesel here there is a 42 cent per gallon tax tacked on. So every gallon of dyed you use on road you are stealing .42 cents from the government. 20 Years ago they only use to check our fuel tanks. This oil company had 8 trucks. They had clear (taxed) fuel in their truck tanks. Their trucks were hauling heating oil. tapped into the lines on the bottom of the truck and instead of pulling fuel from the diesel tank, they rerouted the lines to go directly to the back tanker tank. As long as they never let their trucks run dry - they were running heating oil into the engine. but anyone checking the truck tank saw clear diesel.

Sure enough one truck got into an accident. Engine was hit in the front - red dye all over the road. Troopers werent sure what was going on at first - thinking the back tank popped. But nope. They took a really good look and yup. They went back to the yard of the oil company and all 8 trucks the same thing! I forget the fine they got - but they put the owner in jail for tax fraud or something. I think he got like 5 years in jail. Said he was doing it for like 8 years or something

 

[Diydave]

Got a buddy that has a farm tank on the back, he piped it just like the oil co did, has never been caught, been dipped a coupla times. I won't run the risk, the fine is $10000, or so I hear. I also heard that just one tank of dyed fuel can last long enough to be detected like 50 tanks later. Around here, the DOT Nazis wait around farm shows, tractor pulls, county fairs, they is sneaky bastards...

 

[D2Cat]

forceten, here's a copy of Va. law in reference to off road fuel (non-taxed). You might want to actually check the laws in your state, because as this reads if you sell to someone who you know/think will use on road you can become liable.

"VIrginia Penalties for Unlawful Use
The civil penalty is a minimum of $1,000 or $10 per gallon of fuel, based on the maximum storage capacity of the tank(s). Penalties are charged on the propulsion tanks of the vehicle as well as on any storage tanks on the vehicles. Penalties can also be charged on the storage tank at the farm if that was the source of the dyed fuel found in the vehicle. (Va. Code § 58.1-2265(B))
Any person who refuses to allow an inspection or collection of a fuel sample is subject to a $5,000 penalty for each refusal. If the refusal is for a vehicle fuel sample collection, the penalty is assessed to the registered owner of the vehicle. If the refusal is for a sample to be taken from any other storage tank or container, the penalty will be payable by the owner of the storage tank or container. (Va. Code § 58.1-2267)
A person may be charged with a Class 6 felony if he or she uses dyed diesel fuel for a use that he or she knows or has reason to know is a taxable use of the fuel. Penalties can be charged if a person sells dyed diesel fuel to someone who the seller knows or has reason to know will use the fuel for a taxable purpose. If the amount of fuel is less than 20 gallons, the person may be charged with a Class 1 misdemeanor. (Va. Code § 58.1-2273(7)"

Diydave, at least in this area (Ks) it is not DOT but the Dept of Rev. And they like to show up at weekly livestock auctions and go through the parking lot.

Since all diesel fuel is now low sulfur, by running off road fuel on roads you are not paying the taxes--that's all, nothing to do with added polutants. The Dept of Rev. wants their money!!

 

[forceten]

forceten, here's a copy of Va. law in reference to off road fuel (non-taxed). You might want to actually check the laws in your state, because as this reads if you sell to someone who you know/think will use on road you can become liable.

Heating oil itself (high sulfur) is almost gone away with also. I think NY went two years ago, NJ went last year. PA still hasnt gone yet but I hear they will in 2016. All the heating oil we have been delivering for the past year is just relabeled LS dyed diesel. No difference other than the cost went up about 10 cents compared to what the PA companies are buying HS heating oil for.


As for us being liable for what we deliver, that is never gonna stick for us. When people ask us for 200 gallons of heating oil, thats what we sell them. If they ask for 200 gallons of dyed diesel thats also what we sell them. Clearly marked dyed red and non taxable use only for the dyed diesel. Unless we actually see them putting it into a vehicle thats on road - its for off road use in our eyes. We do convey the risks they are taking if they put it on an on road vehicle. The rest is on them.

I don't think anyone has outright told us they are putting it into their on road vehicle. But when i drive up to a house (not a farm) and they have some 55 gallon drums or a 275/300 gallon skid tank with pump on the top, and I see they have diesel pickup trucks, I can add up the numbers.





Oh and red dye is concentrated and nasty stuff! 20 years ago we use to have to dye the loads ourselves. You could get 3,000 gallons of diesel clear. Or you could put the dye in (proper amounts) and make the 3,000 gallons dyed off road.

Problem was they caught some companies not dying it. They would say the added the dye to their load, not pay the tax at the terminal but then had 3,000 gallon of clear diesel. They would go sell the fuel as taxable but not report it - there goes an extra $1,260 per truck full profit. They got caught as the year end numbers didnt match up. And now the terminals auto inject the dye into the loads. Still nasty stuff. You would get a few drops of dye on you and it would stay on you for 2 months. Never come out of clothes either. One small 8 ounch bottle of the stuff will ruin 1-2,000 gallons of clear fuel.

If you put red dyed in a tank - and not completely clean it out - leave some in there - there will be traces of it for easily 5-10 fill ups on a vehicles tank

 

[Daren Todd]

I've been in the other shoe, where they lifted the ban and ok'd the use of off road diesel in a vehicle during a couple of natural disasters. One during a hurricane, the other was a tropical storm. And this was to keep emergency and service vehicles going. Stipulation was it had to be a commercial vehicle, and had to be actively participating in disaster relief in some fashion. You had so much time after the ban was reinstated to work the die out of the fuel system. We had a couple delivery trucks that that were known to sit for a week or two at a time. Employees ended up driving them back and forth to work to meet the deadline for working the die out of the fuel system

 

[hodge]

I've read elsewhere that the IRS gets involved; it is tax that is being stolen, so they are in the mix.

 

[skeets]

So really, and I ask because I dont know, How long can it stay inthe tank, I mean when it runs donw to say an 1/8 of a tank and you fill with clear, ok you might get some pink but how long will it continue to stain the fuel? Or does it like dye the filters as well?

 

[D2Cat]

skeets, here's one guys personal answer.


Re: Dyed Diesel Fuel Off Road

Postby Angus Cowman » Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:18 pm
Way it was explained to me when I got checked was Red fuel has 1000 parts pr million dye in it and if they check you you can have no more than 2 parts per million.

So if you have a 100 gal tank with red and leave 2 gal in it and fill with clear it will still test positive for red.

 

[Bulldog]

8 or 10 yrs back they came in the Ft Payne stockyard and went thru the parking lot checking truck while the cattle sale was going on. Every truck they found with dyed fuel was left with a 10K ticket under the wiper. 30 something trucks were ticketed and they all got together and went to court. Long story short, the judge thru it out because it was done on private property without a search warrant. Those guys were either lucky or had the best lawyer, don't know which.

 

[Diydave]

8 or 10 yrs back they came in the Ft Payne stockyard and went thru the parking lot checking truck while the cattle sale was going on. Every truck they found with dyed fuel was left with a 10K ticket under the wiper. 30 something trucks were ticketed and they all got together and went to court. Long story short, the judge thru it out because it was done on private property without a search warrant. Those guys were either lucky or had the best lawyer, don't know which.

Fancy that, a judge with common sense...

 

[skeets]

Dayum there Cat, SO if you had a can with a little off road left in it, and needed to fill it for your truck you could really be in deep dodo

 

[D2Cat]

Looks like you could be in for trouble. I wonder what would be the outcome of someone who put ATF or some other fluid in their clear fuel with the premise it lubes the IP when the sulfur was removed. Still not paying the road tax?

 

[Orange Turbo]

I played around a few years ago with the red stuff, took 1-gal reg, and 1-gal red.... (128oz to the gal) and started to add the red 1oz at a time to the reg, just don't remember how much it took to contaminate it, But it surprised me how little it was............. Not sure if the fuel filter will stay dyed red after use, Just might be something to think about.....As for the ATF and injection pump lube, I use 1oz 2-cycle mix to one gallon of diesel. It's made to burn!, Atf , not sure...

 

[CaveCreekRay]

So use off-road gas on the road and go to jail...

Use a private e-mail server for State Department communications and run for President.

Is this gubmint out of control or what?

 

[forceten]

Its been 15 or 20 years since we use to have to dye the loads ourselves. But to give you an idea how nasty the red dye is - if i remember the bottles right, we would put 16 ounces of dye to dye a full 2900-3,000 gallon load. Like I said nasty stuff. Whatever it dripped on or touched stayed dyed a very long time (hands, clothes skin).


Cavecreekray: yup you don't mess with the irs and their money. Just using small amounts of non taxed fuel (because thats what it is - no red means cheating them out of money) and you get a big fine.

Knowingly and willfully not paying them tax for 6-8 years and 100's of thousands of dollars or millions skipped out on and yup you are going to jail. Would be the same as wesley snipes not paying his taxes.

Your an american citizen who left the country and no plans to come back and been living in another country 7-8 years? Too bad, You owe the irs taxes on everything and they are gonna come for you!

The IRS is the biggest baddest gang of terrorists in the world. Even isis is scared of them!

 

[forceten]

For those of you that don't know here is the breakdown for tax on clear diesel (NJ state - your state will be different but fed is always)


every gallon of diesel there is

.244 cents federal tax
.135 cents Nj state Tax
.04 cents Direct Pay Tax

 

[Orange Turbo]

My area there use to be 40-50cent diff. Now it's about 20cents, Most of the time I just get the road stuff, 200gal, and run it. Not worth the worry. "I wonder if I can get a credit" Net time, I'm getting the red and do my little experiment.