resurfacing flywheel mm reference values
- Thread starter olthumpa
- Start date
Well I am back, November is a month that I would love to forget! When it rains it pours, it poured the whole month and is still raining.
Just started trying to get the clutch working again yesterday. Took the clutch assembly, through bearing, disengaging fork and flywheel off the tractor and took them to a Kubota dealer along with the old clutch assembly. They checked them out and said that everything was OK. Bolted everything back up but still does not work. No surprise there.
Open to any thoughts or sugestions!
Thank you for your thoughts and prayers!
Just started trying to get the clutch working again yesterday. Took the clutch assembly, through bearing, disengaging fork and flywheel off the tractor and took them to a Kubota dealer along with the old clutch assembly. They checked them out and said that everything was OK. Bolted everything back up but still does not work. No surprise there.
Open to any thoughts or sugestions!
Thank you for your thoughts and prayers!
Olthumpa,
Hopefully the weather changes for the better soon (in more ways than one)!
I would bring both assemblies to a good machine shop that has a surface plate and have them measure everything. Yes, it will likely cost a few $$, but at least you'd have an answer.
If I were doing it, I'd lay the housings on a surface plate and measure down through the center hole to determine if the housing is the correct height. If for some reason it's not, it will affect the overall clutch throw.
Also check the height of the release arm pivot holes to see if they're the same height between the two units? Check to make sure they're not curved a bit more or perhaps a bit longer that would affect travel. Are they 100% identical between the new and old units?
Finally, what about the pto release arms? Are those pivot points the same? Are they the same depth? Are the arms the same?
As I wrote previously, SOMETHING IS DIFFERENT. Not trying to be insulting in any way and I know it's frustrating, but it is amazing that nobody can find it. We can't be talking about a small amount, because something is off far enough so it's beyond adjustment. I am betting that it's going to be something obvious once it's found and it could be that Kubota made a change at some point in the manufacturing cycle and you have the newer or older version that doesn't match.
Find a shop with a surface plate and a fresh set of eyes. Describe the problem and let them approach it their own way. They're going to have to check all machines holes, reliefs, heights, etc until they find the issue.
Please keep us posted as we're all learning here.
Good luck!
Steve
Hopefully the weather changes for the better soon (in more ways than one)!
I would bring both assemblies to a good machine shop that has a surface plate and have them measure everything. Yes, it will likely cost a few $$, but at least you'd have an answer.
If I were doing it, I'd lay the housings on a surface plate and measure down through the center hole to determine if the housing is the correct height. If for some reason it's not, it will affect the overall clutch throw.
Also check the height of the release arm pivot holes to see if they're the same height between the two units? Check to make sure they're not curved a bit more or perhaps a bit longer that would affect travel. Are they 100% identical between the new and old units?
Finally, what about the pto release arms? Are those pivot points the same? Are they the same depth? Are the arms the same?
As I wrote previously, SOMETHING IS DIFFERENT. Not trying to be insulting in any way and I know it's frustrating, but it is amazing that nobody can find it. We can't be talking about a small amount, because something is off far enough so it's beyond adjustment. I am betting that it's going to be something obvious once it's found and it could be that Kubota made a change at some point in the manufacturing cycle and you have the newer or older version that doesn't match.
Find a shop with a surface plate and a fresh set of eyes. Describe the problem and let them approach it their own way. They're going to have to check all machines holes, reliefs, heights, etc until they find the issue.
Please keep us posted as we're all learning here.
Good luck!
Steve
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Just spent a few minutes on the Kubota parts site.
www.kubota.com
Under the "Clutch" heading, it appears there were two different major clutch assemblies broken by serial number. I think it would first be prudent to determine whether you have the new or old style. Look at the pics and compare the thrust bearing area to figure out which one you have.
If you have the earlier version, you will notice that the clutch lever (#2), clutch release hub (#6), and the distance piece (#16) all had multiple versions. The multiple versions of the clutch release hub is of particular interest to me because what if one is longer than the other?
Also, looking at the clutch itself in the engine > flywheel breakdown > dual clutch, the pressure plates (#'s 4 & 5) had multiple versions so I'd be comparing very closely between the new and the old. Specifically, I'd be measuring thickness.
Finally, regarding the two diaphragm springs (#8), are they cupped or completely flat? What I'm wondering is if they need to be assembled one direction or the other and possibly they might be pushing the assembly either towards or away from the flywheel. It's a shot in the dark, but figured I'd mention it.
Not sure if this is any help, but these are the differences I noticed.
Steve
www.kubota.com
Under the "Clutch" heading, it appears there were two different major clutch assemblies broken by serial number. I think it would first be prudent to determine whether you have the new or old style. Look at the pics and compare the thrust bearing area to figure out which one you have.
If you have the earlier version, you will notice that the clutch lever (#2), clutch release hub (#6), and the distance piece (#16) all had multiple versions. The multiple versions of the clutch release hub is of particular interest to me because what if one is longer than the other?
Also, looking at the clutch itself in the engine > flywheel breakdown > dual clutch, the pressure plates (#'s 4 & 5) had multiple versions so I'd be comparing very closely between the new and the old. Specifically, I'd be measuring thickness.
Finally, regarding the two diaphragm springs (#8), are they cupped or completely flat? What I'm wondering is if they need to be assembled one direction or the other and possibly they might be pushing the assembly either towards or away from the flywheel. It's a shot in the dark, but figured I'd mention it.
Not sure if this is any help, but these are the differences I noticed.
Steve
Apogee:
You are NOT being insulting, I am asking for help and you and others are doing their best to provide it.
I agree that something is definitely different. The clutch assembly that I have now supersedes the original assembly in both the 2X4 and 4X4, (originally they had different clutches), both now use this new assembly. Also, about 10 other Kubota models use it as a replacement for their original assemblies; also 4 or 5 other manufactures use it for god only knows how many different machines. To make it so universal they had to change some tolerances some ware.
Having a machine shop measure everything probably will be my next move.
The problem that I am having is that the release arms that the throughout bearing makes contact with are too far down in the center of the assembly when it is bolted to the flywheel, not allowing enough throw to disengage the second stage. I have measured every part that I could, (that is not affected by ware), and they are the same. I have checked everything that you have suggested.
I could be mistaken and I hope I am but I believe what you are referring to is the 4 different versions of the L275, 2X4 single stage clutch, 2X4 dual stage clutch, , 4X4 single stage clutch, 4X4 dual stage clutch.
The diaphragm springs are cupped and will only fit in one way. Both versions of the clutch as well as the flywheel have been superseded with identical numbers. As for measuring the thickness of the clutch discs, the old ones are pretty worn so that really isn’t an option.
If I have missed any of your suggestions, please feel free to reply.
Thank you for your time and effort. You obviously put a fair amount of both in.
You are NOT being insulting, I am asking for help and you and others are doing their best to provide it.
I agree that something is definitely different. The clutch assembly that I have now supersedes the original assembly in both the 2X4 and 4X4, (originally they had different clutches), both now use this new assembly. Also, about 10 other Kubota models use it as a replacement for their original assemblies; also 4 or 5 other manufactures use it for god only knows how many different machines. To make it so universal they had to change some tolerances some ware.
Having a machine shop measure everything probably will be my next move.
The problem that I am having is that the release arms that the throughout bearing makes contact with are too far down in the center of the assembly when it is bolted to the flywheel, not allowing enough throw to disengage the second stage. I have measured every part that I could, (that is not affected by ware), and they are the same. I have checked everything that you have suggested.
I could be mistaken and I hope I am but I believe what you are referring to is the 4 different versions of the L275, 2X4 single stage clutch, 2X4 dual stage clutch, , 4X4 single stage clutch, 4X4 dual stage clutch.
The diaphragm springs are cupped and will only fit in one way. Both versions of the clutch as well as the flywheel have been superseded with identical numbers. As for measuring the thickness of the clutch discs, the old ones are pretty worn so that really isn’t an option.
If I have missed any of your suggestions, please feel free to reply.
Thank you for your time and effort. You obviously put a fair amount of both in.
North Idaho Wolfman
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L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
When you say you've bolted it all back up, you haven't physically put the tractor back together and tried it have you?
NIW:
I just bolted the transmission section, the first section behind the clutch, to the bell housing.
Apogee:
One thing I forgot. When I took the clutch to the Kubota dealer the opening/splines in the captive PTO friction disk were too small for their clutch alignment tool to fit into
and had to be ground slightly using a flapper wheel, even though it fit onto the pto shaft in the transmission. This does prove that their tolerances do leave something to be desired.
I just bolted the transmission section, the first section behind the clutch, to the bell housing.
Apogee:
One thing I forgot. When I took the clutch to the Kubota dealer the opening/splines in the captive PTO friction disk were too small for their clutch alignment tool to fit into
and had to be ground slightly using a flapper wheel, even though it fit onto the pto shaft in the transmission. This does prove that their tolerances do leave something to be desired.I just need to say that I'm really impressed with the sincere effort and knowledge shared here by Apogee and NIW.
If you wouldn't mind, can I get you to take another look at the parts diagrams on the Kubota website? Specifically, under the Clutch section (NOT the engine>flywheel section), you will notice there are two different Clutch Housing sections (120000 & 123000). I'm *guessing* that you might have the 120000 Clutch Housing. Would you confirm which one you have? The throwout bearing carrier is completely different between the two, so it should be pretty easy to tell.
If you do have the early 120000 Clutch Housing style, please specifically note items #6 & #16.
Regarding #6 (clutch release hub), I don't know if they changed its length, but if they did, it would affect how far the throwout bearing moves toward the engine when the clutch is pressed. I believe it could result in the issue you're experiencing. Since item #10 (propeller shaft housing) did not have multiple versions, I'm *guessing* the change to #6 was length. If one carefully compares the drawing in the main view against the drawing in the upper right corner, it *appears* that the one in the upper right might be longer (and would therefore push the bearing further towards the flywheel). It *could* be that your unit was originally built using the short clutch release hub and it was subsequently dropped and the longer one was used until they changed to the newer style housing.
Regarding #16, (distance piece), I'm not sure where this is located. It may just be a stop for the clutch pedal. In any case, it also changed dimension so it may be worth looking at if it's limiting travel.
I took a look at the flat rate book for the L275 and unfortunately it only shows the 123000 style housing. Hence why I'm wondering if the 120000 style was very early and only used for a short time.
Finally, I wasn't interested in you measuring the thickness of the clutch friction disks themselves. I was wanting you to check the thickness of the pressure plates themselves just to be sure they were close to the originals (Engine section > 025020 Clutch (Dual Clutch) > item #'s 4 & 5)
Please keep us posted.
Thanks,
Steve
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I definitely do not mind! You are helping me.
My tractor has the 123000 version, it is a 1982. You might be on to something! I do not know when the change was made but will try to find out. In my talks with Kubota USA I was told that the difference between the two was that 120000 was for the single stage clutch model and 123000 was for the two stage clutch model and have worked under that assumption. But, part #12 for 120000 lists all 4 variations and part #16 for 123000 lists all 4 variations????? An inconsistency in conversation with the “expert” and the schematics. Given the two different versions of the Clutch Housing, 120000 and 123000, they still only list two versions of the clutch assembly. There is one assembly for the 2X4 version and one for the 4X4 version which have both been superseded by the same clutch assembly.
I am assuming the difference in the length #6 (clutch release hub) is to accommodate the difference in length of the single stage and dual stage clutch.
Item #16 is only used during setup and does not come with the non OEM clutch. It makes it easier to have this disposable block but I still have the measurements to work with.
Item #'s 4 & 5, according to the Kubota dealer are within acceptable limits.
I will check into this and let you know what I find out.
Again, THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!
My tractor has the 123000 version, it is a 1982. You might be on to something! I do not know when the change was made but will try to find out. In my talks with Kubota USA I was told that the difference between the two was that 120000 was for the single stage clutch model and 123000 was for the two stage clutch model and have worked under that assumption. But, part #12 for 120000 lists all 4 variations and part #16 for 123000 lists all 4 variations????? An inconsistency in conversation with the “expert” and the schematics. Given the two different versions of the Clutch Housing, 120000 and 123000, they still only list two versions of the clutch assembly. There is one assembly for the 2X4 version and one for the 4X4 version which have both been superseded by the same clutch assembly.
I am assuming the difference in the length #6 (clutch release hub) is to accommodate the difference in length of the single stage and dual stage clutch.
Item #16 is only used during setup and does not come with the non OEM clutch. It makes it easier to have this disposable block but I still have the measurements to work with.
Item #'s 4 & 5, according to the Kubota dealer are within acceptable limits.
I will check into this and let you know what I find out.
Again, THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!
BAP
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
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2012 Kubota 2920, 60MMM, FEL, BH65 48" Bush Hog, 60"Backblade, B2782B Snowblower
Other thing to check would be the cross arm and forks to make sure they haven't bent or the key holding the forks on to the cross shaft hasn't sheared off. Either of these would cause the forks not to push the clutch arms in far enough. Long shot but worth checking to rule out.
olthumpa,
Just went back through and re-read this entire thread. I deleted my previous message because, after re-reading, it became clear the throwout bearing was not the issue and shimming wouldn't help matters. I kept coming back to your comment about the arms sucking too far down into the clutch and the travel being limited.
An idea just occurred to me that I think might lead to final resolution:
I'd contact Kubota and get the flywheel specs for the other models that this clutch pack is supposed to fit and compare them. I'm wondering if we will find that flywheel specs changed and your now "properly" machined flywheel is actually machined to the specs for the dual clutch assembly that fit the early 120000 housing.
By taking a look at the other model flywheel specs, we should be able to figure out if the flywheel machining is correct. I'm betting you will find the flywheel machining specs are different. I'd concentrate on getting specs for the newer model tractors because I'm guessing the number of drivetrain revisions had stabilized a bit more.
Per the Madison Tractor site the assembly fits the following makes and models:
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: B9200
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: L2250
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: L235
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: L2550
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: L2650
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: L275
Finally, while searching the clutch pack part number, I stumbled on this site and noticed the pic of the clutch pack looked different. Figured it was likely from a different manufacturer OR, they just used a generic pic dual clutch pack pic. One could always verify that the unit they plan to ship is identical to the pic when ordering... Figured you might be interested:
http://www.reliableaftermarketparts...490/32425-dsh-14200-Kubota-Dual-Clutch/Detail
I'd still go after the flywheel specs first though.
Good luck,
Steve
Just went back through and re-read this entire thread. I deleted my previous message because, after re-reading, it became clear the throwout bearing was not the issue and shimming wouldn't help matters. I kept coming back to your comment about the arms sucking too far down into the clutch and the travel being limited.
An idea just occurred to me that I think might lead to final resolution:
I'd contact Kubota and get the flywheel specs for the other models that this clutch pack is supposed to fit and compare them. I'm wondering if we will find that flywheel specs changed and your now "properly" machined flywheel is actually machined to the specs for the dual clutch assembly that fit the early 120000 housing.
By taking a look at the other model flywheel specs, we should be able to figure out if the flywheel machining is correct. I'm betting you will find the flywheel machining specs are different. I'd concentrate on getting specs for the newer model tractors because I'm guessing the number of drivetrain revisions had stabilized a bit more.
Per the Madison Tractor site the assembly fits the following makes and models:
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: B9200
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: L2250
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: L235
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: L2550
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: L2650
Kubota COMPACT TRACTOR: L275
Finally, while searching the clutch pack part number, I stumbled on this site and noticed the pic of the clutch pack looked different. Figured it was likely from a different manufacturer OR, they just used a generic pic dual clutch pack pic. One could always verify that the unit they plan to ship is identical to the pic when ordering... Figured you might be interested:
http://www.reliableaftermarketparts...490/32425-dsh-14200-Kubota-Dual-Clutch/Detail
I'd still go after the flywheel specs first though.
Good luck,
Steve
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Thanks for your reply.
I have compared the bearings several times, had a machines and a Kubots service dept compare them and all agree that they are the correct bearings. Dual clutch assembly and clutch disc also check out. (the same as the ones being replaced)
Using a thicker bearing or shimming it out does not work, already tried that. Also used longer bolts on part #27 release lever to see if that made any difference, no luck there also.
Everything that I have tried all point to one thing, part #27 release lever is to far down in the center of the clutch assembly when it is bolted to the flywheel. The release lever bottoms out before the second stage can be lifted and released. This has been the same problem with 4 different clutch assemblies from 2 different manufactures.
Keep the ideas coming, sooner or later something is going to have to work.
Thanks for your time.
These are the two bearings and the two parts of the clutch that I have got to replace the old ones.
32425-14200 - Assembly, Dual Clutch , 8.5"
32425-14400 - Clutch Disc: 8.5", organic, solid
38430-14820 - Bearing, Release
6002-2RS - Bearing, Pilot
Also replaced these:
Kubota Gasket 15221-04360
Kubota Gasket 15221-04820
Kubota Seal Oil Wheel Side 19202-04460 (don't know why it says Wheel Side, it goes on the end of the crank)
Getting specs from Kubota is harder then pulling hens teeth but after time and effort I got some of them. The L2550F (dual), L2650DT (dual) and the L275 (dual) all have the same 2.0mm rise from where the assembly bolts down and where the first stage clutch disc makes contact. They also all have the same tolerance or +- 0.05mm.
The information that I have says that all of the L275 had engine D1302 and dual stage clutches had Flywheel #15525-25010, ( now superseded by #15525-25013). (ALL the above info comes from a KUBOTA USA CORP service tec, not a dealer)
The clutch assembly that I have now is this one. http://www.reliableaftermarketparts...490/32425-dsh-14200-Kubota-Dual-Clutch/Detail
The photo is incorrect, they just used a generic pic dual clutch pack pic, I confirmed this before I ordered it. It is not made by A&I like the other assemblies I have tried were. Machining and QA are better.
I am still trying to get the specs for Flywheel #15525-25013.
Thanks again for your help!
The information that I have says that all of the L275 had engine D1302 and dual stage clutches had Flywheel #15525-25010, ( now superseded by #15525-25013). (ALL the above info comes from a KUBOTA USA CORP service tec, not a dealer)
The clutch assembly that I have now is this one. http://www.reliableaftermarketparts...490/32425-dsh-14200-Kubota-Dual-Clutch/Detail
The photo is incorrect, they just used a generic pic dual clutch pack pic, I confirmed this before I ordered it. It is not made by A&I like the other assemblies I have tried were. Machining and QA are better.
I am still trying to get the specs for Flywheel #15525-25013.
Thanks again for your help!
Well, so much for that idea... Glad we're on the same wavelength though.
Besides the rise, is the rest of the contact area flat? What I'm wondering is if the pto clutch contact area has a step relative to the main clutch contact area? I've never seen one of these in person, so I'm not familiar with what it looks like.
Have you tried assembling the clutch assembly to the flywheel without the diaphragm springs? I'm curious if the travel on the arms is still limited without them installed? I would think the pto clutch should still not disengage properly without them but it would be interesting to know.
I guess we're just back to taking everything to a shop to have the differences measured. The fact that the original can be reassembled and work properly is most interesting and should lead to resolution once the difference is found.
Damn - I was hoping we'd find a difference between the models and it would put us on the right track!
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All contact surfaces are machined. One side of the diaphragm spring sits in a machined grove and the other on a machined surface that it can be compressed and slide slightly. The pto clutch is sandwiched between machined surfaces without any step up.
I have bolted up the clutch assembly to the flywheel without putting in the first stage clutch disk and bolted up the transmission and the second stage, (pto clutch), disengages properly. Clutch peddle free play is also much closer to what it should be.
I think I am going to go with a suggestion I got from a machinist yesterday. His suggestion was to make 3 new assembly rod releases, part #10, a little shorter thereby lifting the levers in the middle up further making contact with the bearing sooner and allowing for further compression. These lengths would have to be exact.
I have bolted up the clutch assembly to the flywheel without putting in the first stage clutch disk and bolted up the transmission and the second stage, (pto clutch), disengages properly. Clutch peddle free play is also much closer to what it should be.
I think I am going to go with a suggestion I got from a machinist yesterday. His suggestion was to make 3 new assembly rod releases, part #10, a little shorter thereby lifting the levers in the middle up further making contact with the bearing sooner and allowing for further compression. These lengths would have to be exact.
BAP
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
2012 Kubota 2920, 60MMM, FEL, BH65 48" Bush Hog, 60"Backblade, B2782B Snowblower
I wonder if when the clutch parts were superseded and the flywheel superseded, if you have to replace both as a matched set? Or are they able to be mixed and matched? Just thinking of some strange possibilities.