Repairing/Replacing Parts on B8200HST Mid Mount PTO

[plumber mechanic]

I am the third owner of a B8200 Kubota with a mid mount mower. Before I started to mount the mower I thought I'd better take off the mid mount PTO shaft cover to make sure it actually turns. Which to my surprise it didn't (however the rear PTO does turn). After I drained the hydraulic fluid and looked inside I found the PTO was missing parts 8, 9, 10 and 11 in the attached parts diagram. The bottom half the the PTO is all in place and looks good. Also the gears above in the case look good. Apparently one of the owners before me had a problem and could not get the hard to find parts and so he re-attached the bottom case and decided to "throw in the towel".

Through checking with various nationwide Kubota Dealers, I was able to find all the parts except for part #9 in the diagram below. I have a relative who is a 40 year machinist and he said he can make the "idle shaft" (part #9). On first inspection and measuring the parts that I do have, my relative has questions that I hope you guys can help me out with....They are.

1. Part #10 (needle roller bearings in photo below) He can make an idle shaft that will fit into the casing holders (part #2) and it will also fit snugly inside the two roller bearings. However part #8 (the gear) inside opening will be loose over the needle roller bearings and he thinks this will tear things up. He is wondering if he needs to make a sleeve for inside the gear so it fits and turns snugly over the needle bearings????

2. When he installs parts 8, 10 and 11 on the shaft, there will be a side to side movement of about 1/8" between the shaft mounting posts on the PTO case. He is a little concerned that this might be a problem????

3. Part #11 (2 collars in diagram below) one side has 4 notches and the other side is flat. Which side goes on the shaft against part #8 (gear) the flat side or notched side????

I really appreciate any technical help you guys can give to get this PTO working properly.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

The notches go towards the gear.
If you look at the bearing very closely the bearing slide out, you can see the differance between the two bearings.
The shaft need to be the sprocket hole size plus 2 roller bearing thicknesses plus a couple thousand to give it clearance.

 

[plumber mechanic]

The notches go towards the gear.
If you look at the bearing very closely the bearing slide out, you can see the differance between the two bearings.
The shaft need to be the sprocket hole size plus 2 roller bearing thicknesses plus a couple thousand to give it clearance.

View attachment 124786

Thanks so much Wolfman for the great information and I will pass it onto my relative for machining the shaft. Once the gear, collars, bearings and shaft are installed it looks like there will be a side to side gear and collar movement on the shaft of about 1/8" (between the two PTO casing posts holding the shaft). Is this something to be concerned about?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Thanks so much Wolfman for the great information and I will pass it onto my relative for machining the shaft. Once the gear, collars, bearings and shaft are installed it looks like there will be a side to side gear and collar movement on the shaft of about 1/8" (between the two PTO casing posts holding the shaft). Is this something to be concerned about?

No, they are square cut gears so a little movement if fine.

 

[plumber mechanic]

No, they are square cut gears so a little movement if fine.

Wolfman....thanks again for your response. I passed your information onto my machinist relative. He says he agrees with you on what the diameter of the shaft should be to fit inside the needle bearings. However, the inside diameter of the gear, once installed over the bearings, will still have some slop. In other words the bearings will not fit snug to the inside diameter of the gear. Is this slop normal?.....or should he make a sleeve for the inside diameter of the gear to decrease its diameter so the gear turns snugly on the bearings??? I have verified the right part number for the gear and it is the correct gear called for by Kubota.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Wolfman....thanks again for your response. I passed your information onto my machinist relative. He says he agrees with you on what the diameter of the shaft should be to fit inside the needle bearings. However, the inside diameter of the gear, once installed over the bearings, will still have some slop. In other words the bearings will not fit snug to the inside diameter of the gear. Is this slop normal?.....or should he make a sleeve for the inside diameter of the gear to decrease its diameter so the gear turns snugly on the bearings??? I have verified the right part number for the gear and it is the correct gear called for by Kubota.

If the bearing is the right bearing there shouldn't be slop.
When he's measuring shaft size, is it to match the case?

I'm wondering if you have the wrong case?
I think every issue your running into would be because it's a b7100 case.
Picture of the gear side would be great.

 

[PaulL]

I'm wondering if you have the wrong case?
I think every issue your running into would be because it's a b7100 case.
Picture of the gear side would be great.

I'm always amazed at your ability to come up with diagnosis based on the most limited information, and knowing the kinds of things people could have done. Never would have crossed my mind it's the wrong case. It really is a rare skill you have NIW.

 

[plumber mechanic]

If the bearing is the right bearing there shouldn't be slop.
When he's measuring shaft size, is it to match the case?

I'm wondering if you have the wrong case?
I think every issue your running into would be because it's a b7100 case.
Picture of the gear side would be great.

Thanks for getting back Wolfman. Well you definitely think out of the box and could be onto something. As for the Kubota parts picture and the way it fits onto the transmission casing it looks like it would be the right case. However, one of the owners before me could have "jerry rigged" a B7100 case that happens to fit the tractor even though there are different gear dimensions.

The machinist (my cousin) is out of town Monday and Tuesday and he has all the parts. So about Wednesday or Thursday I can get you dimensions and pics of the gear and the case. Thanks so much.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

curious, had a look at the dwg.....
I'd think the idler shaft #9 would be ,say , 1/2mm less in diameter that the 2 'thrust washers' shown in 3rd picture ??

 

[plumber mechanic]

If the bearing is the right bearing there shouldn't be slop.
When he's measuring shaft size, is it to match the case?

I'm wondering if you have the wrong case?
I think every issue your running into would be because it's a b7100 case.
Picture of the gear side would be great.

Wolfman....I have attached some photos that you requested of the PTO case. Also, I've included a photo of the Gear with the roller bearing inside so you can see that there is slop clearance.

My relative (the machinist) who will be making the idle shaft asked if you know the following questions:
1. What is the metal hardness for idle shaft (he referred to it as the rockwell hardness on the "C" scale). He is guessing somewhere between 58-60???
2. Should the shaft have a drilled hole for the locking screw or a flat spot???

Thanks

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Wolfman....I have attached some photos that you requested of the PTO case. Also, I've included a photo of the Gear with the roller bearing inside so you can see that there is slop clearance.

My relative (the machinist) who will be making the idle shaft asked if you know the following questions:
1. What is the metal hardness for idle shaft (he referred to it as the rockwell hardness on the "C" scale). He is guessing somewhere between 58-60???
2. Should the shaft have a drilled hole for the locking screw or a flat spot???

Thanks

OK something is not right, 2 more pictures please.
Put the gear in the case, and shoot a picture down the holes where the shaft goes.
I need to see the sides of the gear so shot with the teeth facing the camera.
I'm 99% sure that it's the wrong gear, But the tooth count is right, so if it will align and mesh properly cutting a bushing for it will do the trick.
The hole in the shaft can go all the way through it, but it needs to be at least deep enough for the retention bolt to bottom out in the case and not bottom out on the shaft.
There is little to no stress on it, it just keeps the shaft from walking.
And yes 58 - 60 should be good for the shaft

 

[plumber mechanic]

OK something is not right, 2 more pictures please.
Put the gear in the case, and shoot a picture down the holes where the shaft goes.
I need to see the sides of the gear so shot with the teeth facing the camera.
I'm 99% sure that it's the wrong gear, But the tooth count is right, so if it will align and mesh properly cutting a bushing for it will do the trick.
The hole in the shaft can go all the way through it, but it needs to be at least deep enough for the retention bolt to bottom out in the case and not bottom out on the shaft.
There is little to no stress on it, it just keeps the shaft from walking.
And yes 58 - 60 should be good for the shaft

Hi Wolfman...sorry for the delay. Having been laid up with some back problems and the Easter holiday, I've been out of action. My cousin (the machinist) made a temporary bushing (in place of the bearing) and shaft as seen in photo below. When we put them together in the PTO case the new gear and lower case gear barely touched each other. When we manually turned them they would basically strip over each other.

Recapping things.....we know Kubota is at least using a wrong number for either the new gear or the needle roller bearing as they are not compatible. Both have been confirmed by at least two different Dealers as the right numbers on Kubota's part list for my tractor. However, you suggested in one post it could be the wrong case and possibly be for a B7100. Now I did check the PTO case number for a B7100 and it did in fact have a different number then mine. However the B7100 parts drawing case looked exactly like the same drawing as for the B8200.

With everything said above we decided that my cousin is going the make the permanent shaft and we will put things back on the PTO case. I will then temporarily mount the PTO case to the tractor and hope I can feel the new PTO gear wanting to mess with the existing tractor gear (as I won't be able to see visually). Provided the new gear seems to mess correctly, then there may be the possibility of a wrong PTO case?

I've tried to talk to Kubota directly (they'll only talk to dealers) to see if I can get manufacture drawings and measurements of the PTO case and its parts for my tractor. As you can see by the photo below a lot of labor and love went into this tractor and I am determined to get it all back in order.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Hi Wolfman...sorry for the delay. Having been laid up with some back problems and the Easter holiday, I've been out of action. My cousin (the machinist) made a temporary bushing (in place of the bearing) and shaft as seen in photo below. When we put them together in the PTO case the new gear and lower case gear barely touched each other. When we manually turned them they would basically strip over each other.

Recapping things.....we know Kubota is at least using a wrong number for either the new gear or the needle roller bearing as they are not compatible. Both have been confirmed by at least two different Dealers as the right numbers on Kubota's part list for my tractor. However, you suggested in one post it could be the wrong case and possibly be for a B7100. Now I did check the PTO case number for a B7100 and it did in fact have a different number then mine. However the B7100 parts drawing case looked exactly like the same drawing as for the B8200.

With everything said above we decided that my cousin is going the make the permanent shaft and we will put things back on the PTO case. I will then temporarily mount the PTO case to the tractor and hope I can feel the new PTO gear wanting to mess with the existing tractor gear (as I won't be able to see visually). Provided the new gear seems to mess correctly, then there may be the possibility of a wrong PTO case?

I've tried to talk to Kubota directly (they'll only talk to dealers) to see if I can get manufacture drawings and measurements of the PTO case and its parts for my tractor. As you can see by the photo below a lot of labor and love went into this tractor and I am determined to get it all back in order.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

I'm 99% sure that's the wrong gear as it just doesn't look right

The B7100 case has a roll pin to stake the shaft in where the b8200 has a bolt so it's not a B7100 case.
Now the B7200 does have a bolt to stake the pin in and it takes completely different parts.

 

[plumber mechanic]

I'm 99% sure that's the wrong gear as it just doesn't look right

The B7100 case has a roll pin to stake the shaft in where the b8200 has a bolt so it's not a B7100 case.
Now the B7200 does have a bolt to stake the pin in and it takes completely different parts.

Hi wolfman....After studying the parts list for B6200, B7200, B8200 and B98200 Mid Mount PTO's, I have found that my casing pictured below only has 11 gear teeth on the gear shaft. The B6200 and B7200 parts show 11 teeth for their shaft. My B8200 parts list calls for 16 teeth on the shaft. So this is the potential key to my problem. Now I must try to determine if the PTO casing I have is compatible with the B8200 case and if I can just replace the existing shaft with the correct gear shaft (06301-15890). I noticed the shaft bearings and idle shafts on all four "B" models use the same numbers. Could this mean the PTO cases are potentially all the same and I can just replace the shaft????

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Your going to need to get the right gear case and the right shaft as all the gears must be be proper for not only mesh but for gear ratio.
I would really try for a complete unit.
Have you tried @007kubotaguy to see if he might have one?

 

[plumber mechanic]

Your going to need to get the right gear case and the right shaft as all the gears must be be proper for not only mesh but for gear ratio.
I would really try for a complete unit.
Have you tried @007kubotaguy to see if he might have one?

Thanks so much for your help Wolfman

 

[plumber mechanic]

Thanks so much for your help Wolfman

Hi Wolfman....I finally located a salvage B8200HST 4WD (same as my tractor) and they have the complete used PTO. They have to dismantle it and make sure everything looks OK. I am assuming this should be the right fit for my tractor. Any reason you can think that this m ay not be the case???

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Hi Wolfman....I finally located a salvage B8200HST 4WD (same as my tractor) and they have the complete used PTO. They have to dismantle it and make sure everything looks OK. I am assuming this should be the right fit for my tractor. Any reason you can think that this m ay not be the case???

When you get it I would love for you to compare parts with what you have.

 

[plumber mechanic]

When you get it I would love for you to compare parts with what you have.

Hi Wolfman got the new used PTO case installed and so far it has been working great. Yes it is different than the one that came with the tractor. The new one has 16 teeth on the lower gear and the old one only had 11 teeth. So that must have come off a B6200 or B7200 as that is the amount of teeth they call for. But you were the one who got the thinking going that it could be the wrong case. So you know your stuff! Otherwise I would have figured the case was the OEM for the tractor and would have kept looking in the wrong direction. Thank You!

However, now that I was able to work the tractor a little a new problem arose. After mowing some grass to test things out and working it a little, I hear a squeal when I shut the tractor down. I think it is a hydraulic squeal that sounds more like a brake squeal. It seems to be coming from under the seat area. Is this something that sounds like it needs adjusting??

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Check it again with the three point control lever at some point other than full up or full down.
If the squeal goes away, you need to adjust the feedback linkage.