Propane

Orange Turbo

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Mo
Anyone filling propane bottles from there home/shop tank?
I just installed a 1000gal in ground tank for backup heat, and going to change the welder over to LP, Where would you get the necessary hoses for the liquid side? So i can fill the 20lb tanks?
Any one with experience in this area?
Thanks.....
 

Tooljunkie

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so this guy,jumps out of an airplane.does his countdown and pulls the cord.nothin happens.pulls cord for reserve chute.nothing happens.
so hes plummeting towards the ground,and meets a guy on the way up.he yells"hey,you know anything about parachutes??"othe guy replies no!,you know anything about filling propane bottles??

sorry couldn't help myself..
best start with getting licencing and proper filling equipment,something bad happens and it could be lethal.
 

OldeEnglish

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Is it a mobile welder or stays put in your shop? If it stays put, why not have it piped in from the underground tank? Otherwise I agree with TJ.
 

Orange Turbo

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Its mobile,
I've filled quite a few, using a scale. Nothing to it, unless your a smoker, lol........Its like anything else there's a right and wrong way,
that's up to you......
 

D2Cat

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Harbor Freight, Cabellas, Bass Pro all sell the fitting to fill the small bottles from the 20# bottles. Maybe that will work, or they may have another one for your big tank.

To fill the little bottles my friend puts them in the freezer for a few minutes. He then installs the fitting on the big bottle, remove the little bottle and connect the two. Turn the big bottle upside down, open valve for one min. Freezer helps fill all the way.
 

Orange Turbo

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I have the fitting for the small tanks, If you use the bleed on the small tank and set it about 10 o'clock it will start purging before it gets full.
(no need to cool) gets you about 80% fill, more than safe even on a HOT day.
I'll contact the tank co tomorrow and get it through them.
Thanks.
 

Tooljunkie

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I never realized there were fittings for refilling small bottles, not to mention sikd commercially. I guess access to LPG in discounted volumes would make anybody want to fill portable tanks.
 

CaveCreekRay

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I had no gas at my new house so I put one of these in. Best decision ever and in a year, I have barely gotten the needle off FULL. Only run the cook top and dryer. Thought about bottle refills too...

Neighbors asked, "What was that thing on the trailer?" I told them, "It's my mini-sub for when the big flood comes!"
 

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Orange Turbo

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C C Ray,
being its underground, (cool)... I'm thinking it "might" have to be pumped, not real sure yet, I know the above ground would be easier. (warm).. if the 20lbs tanks can be down to 0 psi, through venting, should be able to fill with just the correct fitting and hose...I'm going to do a little more home work and get it figured out...
Hell guys, back in the early days a lot of the old orchard and farm tractors ran on LP... I was hoping someone on here had some experience with the connections they used back in the day filling from a bulk tank to a ;)tractor...
 

dandeman

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www.dan-de-man.net
Anyone filling propane bottles from there home/shop tank?
I just installed a 1000gal in ground tank for backup heat, and going to change the welder over to LP, Where would you get the necessary hoses for the liquid side? So i can fill the 20lb tanks?
Any one with experience in this area?
Thanks.....

I strongly recommend you buy a copy of NFPA 58 LP Gas Code http://www.amazon.com/NFPA-58-Lique...e=UTF8&qid=1439990895&sr=8-1&keywords=nfpa+58 before you do anything.. It's a very readable document with diagrams explaining the text. It will give you insight as to what can and can not be done.

The dealer who just installed your 1000 gallon tank should be someone knowledgable in NFPA 58 who can advise you, and have the special fittings for LP you'll likely not be able to purchase anywhere else.. Talk to him about your needs and have him do it, if code allows..

Dealing with Liquid or wet feed LP is a whole different world in terms of code requirements because the smallest liquid leak represents a serious fire/explosion hazard due to the high liquid to vapor expansion ratio of propane and the high pressures involved (requiring 350psi rated piping).

For example the post suggesting that if your welder is in a fixed location inside a building to run a liquid feed piping to it.. This would be a major violation of NFPA 58 as liquid feed piping can only be run into special purpose/constructed buildings with large setbacks from other structures due to the hazards from a leak.

You will find mobile systems inside buildings in the form of LP gas power forklifts, even LP power trucks using LP tanks designed for wet feed systems, but again there are some very specific design requirements to make these systems safe.. Wet feed LP tanks are considerably more expensive due to their much more robust construction, compared to a vapor feed portable cylinder.

I learned a lot about this when I purchased a Miller Bobcat 225 with the factory LP liquid feed option. I built a dedicated purpose design trailer for the Bobcat 225 and its associated LP tanks after talking to the Miller factory engineers, a knowledgeable local LP dealer who after considerable quizzing me about the project, only then advised and sold me the proper rated parts, and studying NFPA 58 LP Gas Code.

In addition to the LP system itself, NFPA 58 defined specific requirements for the design of the trailer with regard to the mounting of the tanks and collision protection.

Recommend not putting yourself in the position of having to explain a non code compliant hook up to the investigating fire marshal and your insurance company after a fire/explosion.
 
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D2Cat

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"... back in the early days a lot of the old orchard and farm tractors ran on LP."

Wasn't too many years ago you'd see pickup trucks with a propane tank in the bed. I've got the tank out of one, but have never used it.

Call your local propane delivery guy to get information on fittings.
 

ShaunRH

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I do believe there are kits and installations to do this. However I do think you need to be licensed and certified for it to be insured on it.
 

Orange Turbo

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Thanks Guy's for all the info!
Points well taken, I will be contacting the gas supplier. I'm sure the law's are a-lot diff now,,,, compared to yesterday.
Thanks Again...........
 

OldeEnglish

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For example the post suggesting that if your welder is in a fixed location inside a building to run a liquid feed piping to it.. This would be a major violation of NFPA 58 as liquid feed piping can only be run into special purpose/constructed buildings with large setbacks from other structures due to the hazards from a leak.
Not necessarily true. First, it's agains OSHA regs to operate a fuel burning welder indoors unless it is in a 3 sided out building or car port separate from the structure. It could be fixed indoors if the exhaust is piped air tight outdoors with proper ventilation for cooling/combustion air purposes and CO detectors. This is done with standby generators all the time. Anything can be piped to an underground LP tank with underground piping, 1st&2nd stage regulators, or a duel stage regulator. Standby generators, BBQ's, fire pits, you name it can be piped directly from a tank with the proper regulators. A propane filling station is a whole other ball of wax and you are correct it has to be away from a structure.

It depends on the welder, it has to have a combo vaporizer duel stage regulator. The biggest problem with a vapor feed is cold temps lowering the Pressure of an LP tank. In the OP's case, his tank is underground and insulated from the ambient tempature which is the best to have. With a 1000 gals capacity (really 800gals), I doubt you would run low on pressure.

In turbo's case this doesn't matter because he must have a truck mounted setup, but he very well could have it fixed someplace and piped into his underground tank as long as all codes are met and it's done by a licensed pro. It would also have to meet the welder manufacture's specs on the amount of water colum needed to supply the motor and not to exceed the regulator's max water colum so the regulator doesn't blow.
 
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North Idaho Wolfman

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It's not a super secret or super controlled device, You can buy the fittings and valves on EBay and in a kit too.
The only problem you will have is if your storage tank is full you'll have to wait to install the liquid valve on the storage tank.

Each kit has a different size tank fitting.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIQUID-PROP...ING-/171376004862?hash=item27e6ce4efe&vxp=mtr
or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-4-NGT-M-T...175d608&pid=100005&rk=2&rkt=6&sd=171376004862
or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-3-4-ACME-...ING-/191491644505?hash=item2c95ca9c59&vxp=mtr

Here is how the liquid valve connects to the tank.

 

Orange Turbo

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That's it,,^^^^^^^^^^^
Call the supplier, he's going to get back to me tomorrow. Never gave it a thought about the tank being full. (thanks) When they fill, the nozzle looks like it starts threading on before the tip pushes the valve down, I was thinking the liq-side would be the same way. for sure the welding gloves will serve duel-purpose.....:D
Before when I would fill the 20lb tanks from a very large bulk tank, just set it on the scale, open the vent and when it starting coming out and scaled at 38lb, "done"...... never had an issue even on 100deg days, setting in the sun.
Like i said, theirs two ways to do things, its your call...I don't feel I reached 67yo by being stupid..........:D
Thanks Again Guy's, As usual you came through......;).......
 

Orange Turbo

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Thanks Wolfman!

All fittings, hose, valves, (kit) to be delivered today. Will be able to fill an assortment of tanks........:cool:
Thinking there's going to be a lot of Eng's on propane in my future.........:D
"Now back to the drawing board":rolleyes:
 

Stubbyie

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Real simple, just don't smoke around the tanks.

Wear gloves and goggles.

No need for a scale to weigh anything.

No pumping required so long as the tank you're filling has an 80% fill level port (thumbscrew or screwdriver, keep reading).

The bulk tank has to have a liquid valve.

Use propane rated hose.

Install a ball valve as a secondary valve just off the tank liquid valve.

If you're not intimately familar with pressurized vessels and liquified gasses you'll need your dealer to install the liquid valve on the bulk tank. Not every tank has a liquid outlet fitting. You may need to change tanks or when the tank is empty go with a hybrid (and somewhat uncommon) 3-way valve.

If your tank has a fitting labeled 'liquid', sticks up an inch or an inch-and-an-half, looks like a hex fitting, and has a plug in it, you most likely have the liquid outlet available for use. In theory the plug can be removed, you'd get a spurt of liquid propane and then the spring loaded excess flow fitting would engage and the flow would snap stop. Then the propane-tank type approved liquid valve could be installed (with a quality ball valve after it before the hose is attached). Occasionally the excess flow fitting doesn't shut. That's why you let your service man do this unless you are familiar with the process.

The liquid line off the bulk tank will probably have a 1-in or 1-1/2-in fitting on the other end. Use an adapter to fit to your 20-lb propane bottle. Make sure your adapter will open the OverPressureDevice (OPD) on newer small tanks (those having triangular valve handles).

On the 20-lb tank open the thumbscrew (or screwdriver valve), open the bulk tank valve first making sure all connections are tight, open small tank valve, fill until liquid squirts out the 80% thumbscrew. Close thumbscrew and close valves. Good to have second small tank standing by to hook hose to, open little tank valve with bulk tank valve closed, bleed liquid hose into mostly empty second small tank.

When cold temps may take 10-min to fill small tank, at 110-F happens quickly. Bulk tank pressure increases as air temp rises and creates more vapor pressure to more quickly fill small tank.

If you also fill tractor propane or truck tank or tanks other than 20-lb will need other adapters. Get the kind of adapter that has a handwheel doesn't require wrenches.

Your dealer should assist you as he sells more propane that way. Some get horsey about it saying only they can fill bottles and refusing to sell hoses and valves and adapters. If you own the tank (not leased and therefore tied to the one dealer) I'd find another dealer. If you own the tank you can also negotiate prices. If you lease the tank I'd buy it or find a good used one and move it yourself. Strap beneath and don't use the lifting ears if there is any liquid in the used tank. Dealer won't move a tank with liquid aboard.

You can find everything you need on the Internet but would be helpful to talk to somebody at sales desk that knows what they're doing. Try Arkansas Gas Equipment Co in Little Rock or look up Rego for valves on the Internet. I've had good luck with both, buying directly anything I needed.

Other poster was correct: not too many years ago every farmer in our part of the world had a liquid fill line off his home propane tank to fill his tractor and pickup. Starting to come back around but not like before. Used fill hose assemblies are getting hard to come by. In my area used large tanks sell for about a buck a gallon, sometimes much less, and you move it.

The stuff you need to acquire won't be cheap, but will last about as long as you have interest. I keep my 20-ft liquid fill line coiled around the tank and piece of old carpet thrown over it to keep the sun off it. White carpet to help keep tank cool in summer and when grass fire approaches easier to wet tank (tank shouldn't blow, but may vent worst case in small fire; look up BLEVE on web).

If you think your way into the process and pay attention it's no different than using your air compressor to fill a portable air tank. Just be careful.

Please post back your continuing experiences so we may all learn.
 

Orange Turbo

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Thank you for the info! Yes, I own the tank. (in ground) And it has the liquid port. The local gas co was not very helpful. I have 3-diff size tank fittings, The set-up I received is able to connect to 3-diff receiver tank sizes. It has two on/off valves, one fixes on the bulk tank and the other is at the hose end where the fitting screws to the receiver tank.. I'll try an find a gas co to screw the valve to the tank. (permanent). Still doing research on the hook-up. (valve on tank) The filling process is the easy part. Not sure if I can just screw the main shut-off valve to the liq-port without issues.
Thanks Again for your input.