Let's help build up Kubotabooks.com's database of manuals

[tunin]

Hi guys, We all know about kubotabooks.com, I bought a manual I could jot find and decided to share it with kubotabook.com to share it with others.


Scanned it and sent it off to Dave, he posted it the same day. I am sure you guys have manuals, service books or whatever concerning the orange tractor.

Please scan and send it to kubotabooks.com, if everyone contributes a bit this will be a more excessive database than what Kubota offers (read very little).



Thank you.

 

[rentthis]

Re: Let us build up the digital database of manuals

This would be a great resource but how might we run afoul of copywrite laws?

 

[Newlyme]

Re: Let us build up the digital database of manuals

Watching with great interest.

Once legal is figured out I would be most willing participant.

 

[tiktock]

Re: Let us build up the digital database of manuals

A someone who works for a copyright company, this is pretty ugly. Reproducing and making available the intellectual property of others, especially to the commercial detriment of the copyright holder, is pretty much the cornerstone of copyright infringement. Arguments could be made for document more in the public domain, containing only statistical information or such but things like WSMs that Kubota actively charges for? Theres no argument I can imagine anyone making that doesnt result in copyright infringement and a loss of revenue resulting for Kubota. Whoever hosts that site, imho, is taking on pretty significant legal risk, as would the people who take the copyrighted materials they have effectively licensed for their own 1X use and sent those documents to others, especially to be hosted for free elsewhere.

Theres literally no difference than taking an Ebook you just bought off amazon and throwing it on an FTP site.

Will anyone get sued? Up to the copyright holder, how much they think they are losing and how aggressively they'd be willing to pursue it.

 

[GeoHorn]

Re: Let us build up the digital database of manuals

I'm no expert on copyright law but I am reminded of the software agreement we all should know about which allows us to purchase an app and use it ourselves...and to allow others to use our copy themselves.... provided it's not used simultaneously, I.E., on one machine by one person at a time.

I own the copyright on a technical manual I co-authored and have no intention of prosecuting anyone for sharing it provided THEY don't charge for sharing.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

All of the manuals on Kubotabooks.com are fine, we went over this completely many different times over the years.

He knows when a manual can't be posted on his site.

Kubotabooks.com is not breaking any US or international laws on copyright or any other infringements that we know of.

The reason for this is all the manuals on his site can be gotten in a variety of different ways, and none of those ways are through a Authorized Kubota seller, they have fallen into the realm of public domain for one reason or another.

A lot of the manuals originated from, Kubota of Czechoslovakia , where at one time all the manuals were offered on their site for free, they have since rebuilt their site and the old manuals have disappeared off their database listing.

Canada has also followed with some manuals being openly offered.

In closing if you have a manual and it's not on his list, you can send it to him and he can determine if it's legal and acceptable to include it in his library.

FYI: Note that some of the manuals on Kubotabooks.com may appear to be your exact manual, but some are not, there are lot of European manuals for tractors in the manaul list, and some of the systems and parts vary in these EU models.

 

[tiktock]

All of the manuals on Kubotabooks.com are fine, we went over this completely many different times over the years.

He knows when a manual can't be posted on his site.

Kubotabooks.com is not breaking any US or international laws on copyright or any other infringements that we know of.

The reason for this is all the manuals on his site can be gotten in a variety of different ways, and none of those ways are through a Authorized Kubota seller, they have fallen into the realm of public domain for one reason or another.

A lot of the manuals originated from, Kubota of Czechoslovakia , where at one time all the manuals were offered on their site for free, they have since rebuilt their site and the old manuals have disappeared off their database listing.

Canada has also followed with some manuals being openly offered.

In closing if you have a manual and it's not on his list, you can send it to him and he can determine if it's legal and acceptable to include it in his library.

FYI: Note that some of the manuals on Kubotabooks.com may appear to be your exact manual, but some are not, there are lot of European manuals for tractors in the manaul list, and some of the systems and parts vary in these EU models.

I'd be a bit more careful than suggested here but I'll bite my tongue a bit as I dont want to mix work and fun. Copyright is highly nuanced, geographically differentiated, segmented between personal and commercial use, exactly what is being copied and if the actual rightsholder could be perceived to be losing money as a result of their IP being reproduced. Just because someone has copied and offered a copyrighted manual doesnt suddenly make it "in the public domain" since public domain is defined by copyright law, not availability. Public domain is materials that are NOT covered by copyright law and has nothing to do with where you sourced them being or not being a Kubota "official" source. Last I checked the materials in these are not over 70 years old and someone owns the rights to them. Period.

Even the fact that they've chosen to give them away for free doesnt suddenly make them in the public domain, either, unless the copyright holder specifically dedicates the work into the public domain. Otherwise you cannot assume public domain and the copyright holder still retains all authority on the use and reproduction/re-use of the work. There are lots of examples of this. Creative commons licensing (At least some types like CC-BY) are good examples of things that are "free to use" but are not in the public domain and if not attributed/cited appropriately are still copyright violations. For instance if you use a CC-BY-NC licensed work at your repair shop, you've violated the terms of that license by using in a commercial setting.

Some of the geographic stuff you mentioned may not even apply to US citizens. For instance in germany copyright is a levy system and German citizens are offered explicit rights to works produced in Germany. Those rights aren't extended to people in the US as they arent worldwide digital rights unless there's a direct deal or bi-lateral agreement between the RRO organizations in those other countries.

Lots of this is far more complex/nuanced....

I dont think there's major monetary risk here but I tend to worry about over-simplification of copyright issues as there's not much simple about copyright law.

 

[tunin]

Well, looking at this from a user perspective, been looking for a manual for my used KUBOTA, i must say Kubota failed me, they do nit have a “download” sitte where one could get manuals for the product they have... why would one want a manual for a product that one doese not have, thus, he is entitled to it.

One can download a manual for a freaking blender... why can’t Kubota have them downloadable...

 

[sheepfarmer]

Well, looking at this from a user perspective, been looking for a manual for my used KUBOTA, i must say Kubota failed me, they do nit have a “download” sitte where one could get manuals for the product they have... why would one want a manual for a product that one doese not have, thus, he is entitled to it.

One can download a manual for a freaking blender... why can’t Kubota have them downloadable...

The Kubota website does or did have a site where you can download some manuals for a
small fee, but I don't know how many are up there or if it was only operators manuals. Their website is hard to navigate. Have you tried a dealership? Have you tried submitting a question to Kubota through their website? Operators manuals come with tractors, and shop manuals typically are not free, at least that's the case for my trucks and is the case for new Kubotas.

 

[tunin]

Hi,

I actually did all of what you asked and typically Kubota could not care less about us small owners/users... Their usual response is talk to a dealer,

When the only dealer in my country, about 400 miles away, they say, yeah, we only offer Super UDT and filters and some other parts and that is it... then I try contacting a dealer in Germany or wherewer, they would not help because they do not care about someone that did not by the tractor from them...

The Kubota website does or did have a site where you can download some manuals for a
small fee, but I don't know how many are up there or if it was only operators manuals. Their website is hard to navigate. Have you tried a dealership? Have you tried submitting a question to Kubota through their website? Operators manuals come with tractors, and shop manuals typically are not free, at least that's the case for my trucks and is the case for new Kubotas.

 

[tiktock]

Hi,

I actually did all of what you asked and typically Kubota could not care less about us small owners/users... Their usual response is talk to a dealer,

When the only dealer in my country, about 400 miles away, they say, yeah, we only offer Super UDT and filters and some other parts and that is it... then I try contacting a dealer in Germany or wherewer, they would not help because they do not care about someone that did not by the tractor from them...

Are you simply looking for an owners manual that comes free with the implement or tractor or are you looking for the much more expensive workshop manual that usually costs $50-90?

 

[sheepfarmer]

Hi,

I actually did all of what you asked and typically Kubota could not care less about us small owners/users... Their usual response is talk to a dealer,

When the only dealer in my country, about 400 miles away, they say, yeah, we only offer Super UDT and filters and some other parts and that is it... then I try contacting a dealer in Germany or wherewer, they would not help because they do not care about someone that did not by the tractor from them...

I wouldn't give up on getting help from Kubota that easily, but it does take persistence. Once you submit a question to their helpline, you will typically get a response in about 2 days. If the response is not helpful, eg speak to dealer, reply again with reason why you would like more help, eg dealer 400 miles away, and has refused to sell you a manual. Etc just because one answer is no, doesn't mean all will reply unhelpfully. When I have asked technical questions it sometimes takes a couple tries or asking that the question be forwarded to another expert. You could also ask for the phone number of the country representative for your country. The first line answerers are not typically the most knowledgeable but I wouldn't say they don't care necessarily.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Getting older model WSM or OPS manuals from Kubota is always been something of a gamble.
Most older manuals are being dumped from kubota's data base and are no longer available.
Some manuals never were available.

For people in some countries it can prove to be a real battle, AU and a lot of EU are 2 such areas.

Sites like Kubotabooks has proved to be a lifesaver to may a person over the years, and we have always supported them.

I have a huge database of WSM's and OPS manuals that I use to troubleshoot and repair, and only a handful came directly from kubota all the others were acquired from multiple sources all over the place.

 

[alchemysa]

Kubotabooks is my site. The copyright issue of course is a concern to me. I have no desire to get into a fight with Kubota. I figure they know about the site and tolerate it because everything on it is free. (These same manuals often appear on ebay for considerable prices. If they are concerned about copyright I hope they tackle those mongrels first).

Maybe Kubota is happy that someone is saving this stuff. Its possible that its a better library of the old stuff than even they possess. Maybe they realise its actually good for their spare parts business for owners to be able to keep their tractors going.

I try to ensure that only Kubota factory material is on the site. I would not knowingly keep a manual that has been produced by another publisher.

Many of these manuals came from previous free sites that I had nothing to do with. The original free site was called something like Streamload. It had so much stuff on it 15 years ago that I suspect Kubota themselves or their dealers were loading files onto it. Anyone could find the site and download stuff. But Streamload was a pretty buggy service (this was in the early days of the internet) and it was pretty obvious it was going to crash sooner or later so I grabbed a bunch of files just in case. Other Kubota owners must have done the same thing because once I created Kubotabooks a lot of stuff came in. (Originally anyone could upload files directly to Kubotabooks but I had to stop that system because I was getting too much porn, of course).

Anyway, here we are today. The ads clicks and donations barely cover the hosting costs and I've considered ditching the whole thing (for reasons including the copyright issue) but I think it will be here for a while yet.

 

[Dave_eng]

Well, looking at this from a user perspective, been looking for a manual for my used KUBOTA, i must say Kubota failed me, they do nit have a ***8220;download***8221; sitte where one could get manuals for the product they have... why would one want a manual for a product that one doese not have, thus, he is entitled to it.

One can download a manual for a freaking blender... why can***8217;t Kubota have them downloadable...

I have used this site to purchase 4 different WSM's when trying to help someone in trouble. $9.99 USA. Immediate download. None were Kubota as I can get those but Kioti and others.
http://www.servicemanualvault.com/contact.html

I find the material clear and crisp. Sometimes there are minor issues with something like a stop solenoid which changed on the same model.

It is not a lot to risk if they have the manual you are looking for.

They say they will refund if not happy. I would do this with an hour of a download as I have never had the need to request a refund.......

Exactly which model of Kubota do you want a WSM for? Maybe I have it already.

Dave

 

[torch]

Re: Let us build up the digital database of manuals

Theres literally no difference than taking an Ebook you just bought off amazon and throwing it on an FTP site.

Actually, there is a significant difference. The eBook is falls under the definition of a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic "work", and copyright subsists in "works". Such works are the end product in and of themselves and are therefore worthy of protection.

However, -- under Canadian law, at least -- copyright explicitly does not subsist in directions for the use and care of a useful article in the form of an instruction or repair manual that accompanies a product of which at least 50 units were produced for sale or that is supplied as an accessory to a service. In this case, the end products are material goods and the manuals are a necessary ancillary to the actual product.

In addition, "fair use" doctrine holds that even copyrighted works may be reproduced for the purposes of research and private study. In the case of Kubotabooks, the materials are factual rather than creative in nature. While the use is iterative, it is educational rather than commercial. And there is no financial harm in reproducing manuals that Kubota gave away for free with the product or no longer offers for sale. (One could even argue there is a financial advantage to Kubota, who benefit from sales of parts as a result of the research conducted.)

 

[tiktock]

Re: Let us build up the digital database of manuals

Actually, there is a significant difference. The eBook is falls under the definition of a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic "work", and copyright subsists in "works". Such works are the end product in and of themselves and are therefore worthy of protection.

However, -- under Canadian law, at least -- copyright explicitly does not subsist in directions for the use and care of a useful article in the form of an instruction or repair manual that accompanies a product of which at least 50 units were produced for sale or that is supplied as an accessory to a service. In this case, the end products are material goods and the manuals are a necessary ancillary to the actual product.

In addition, "fair use" doctrine holds that even copyrighted works may be reproduced for the purposes of research and private study. In the case of Kubotabooks, the materials are factual rather than creative in nature. While the use is iterative, it is educational rather than commercial. And there is no financial harm in reproducing manuals that Kubota gave away for free with the product or no longer offers for sale. (One could even argue there is a financial advantage to Kubota, who benefit from sales of parts as a result of the research conducted.)

Interesting take but weird overlap of canadian law and US copyright law. Every Kubota manual I've seen has a copyright statement inside. Instructional manuals can and are copyrighted as literary works.

Quote from Andrei Minov, CEO and founder of Tradmark factory on this subject:
"User manuals (the text and the illustrations) fall under the scope of works protected by copyright.

While the information itself is not the subject of copyright protection, the actual text, illustrations and the layout of the manual are.

In other words, you cannot be stopped from teaching others how to use a gadget by using the information you learned from the manual, but you are not allowed to make and distribute copies of the manual."

Fair use isnt just one criteria...its a blend of four. One of which is what portion of the text has been reproduced. We're talking about 100% copies in this case, some of which Kubota uses as a source of actual revenue. I dont think anyone could honestly argue that Kubota is not taking a financial hit when their copyrighted manuals that they sell for a fee to consumers are being reproduced without their permission, hosted on a website and made available to the public. (The finacial aspect is a second aspect to fair use consideration) Simply meeting one fair use criteria doesnt determine if the use is fair use until all others are considered.

As you and I have pointed out, this is very nuanced and is differentiated based on who the copyright holder is, where they are located, that country's specific copyright laws and a number of other factors.

I dont think anyone is really at risk here as an end user but I certainly wouldnt want to be the person hosting the website with all this copyrighted material on it depending on what country I lived in.

My company does global copyright licensing and many of our product cover owners manuals, technical guides, workshop manuals, technical specifications used by mechanics and such. There's really no debate on if those works are covered by copyright....none are basic facts and all would be considered creative collections of facts at most which are also covered by copyright. The only debate here is how much actual risk someone is taking on in providing a manual they purchased to a thrid party to host elsewhere, how much risk an end user might be taking avoiding paying for a manual by downloading from a site and how much risk the site host is taking in creating a medium in which copyright infringement is occurring.

 

[motionclone]

Arent copyright laws federal laws?

I thought it was OK to ignore federal laws we dont like. Like when states allow everyone to smoke and sell weed, even though its federally illegal.

Or when cities harbor people who are not US citizens and hide them from ICE

 

[torch]

I have a stack of manuals that the OP passed on when I bought my Kubota and implements. Some printed in Canada, some printed in Japan. Not one of them has a printed copyright notice inside.

I realize that there are differences between the copyright laws of various countries. The US is more of a muddle than many. "Fair Use" is not clearly defined and as you say, can vary from case to case and is subject to interpretation by the courts.

I am also aware that claims are just that: claims. And unfortunately many are willing to adamantly make inflated and unjustified claims, even when it violates the rights of others. Witness the "Happy Birthday" song copyright infringement lawsuit of recent past, or museums' attempts to prevent reproductions of ancient artworks.

The principle of copyright was created to confer some measure of protection for artists and authors of original creative, artistic works. Nobody is going to read a Kubota Owner's Manual to admire the lyrical prose or artistic nuances. The sole purpose of reading the manual is to learn how to operate, maintain and repair the actual product.

Improper use of copyright claims in an attempt to restrict that knowledge or force an owner to patronize a dealership network is nothing more than restraint of trade, IMHO. Particularly when a product line is discontinued and the manufacturer no longer makes the manuals available.

 

[KeithG]

Kubotabooks is my site. The copyright issue of course is a concern to me. I have no desire to get into a fight with Kubota. I figure they know about the site and tolerate it because everything on it is free. (These same manuals often appear on ebay for considerable prices. If they are concerned about copyright I hope they tackle those mongrels first).

Maybe Kubota is happy that someone is saving this stuff. Its possible that its a better library of the old stuff than even they possess. Maybe they realise its actually good for their spare parts business for owners to be able to keep their tractors going.

I try to ensure that only Kubota factory material is on the site. I would not knowingly keep a manual that has been produced by another publisher.

Many of these manuals came from previous free sites that I had nothing to do with. The original free site was called something like Streamload. It had so much stuff on it 15 years ago that I suspect Kubota themselves or their dealers were loading files onto it. Anyone could find the site and download stuff. But Streamload was a pretty buggy service (this was in the early days of the internet) and it was pretty obvious it was going to crash sooner or later so I grabbed a bunch of files just in case. Other Kubota owners must have done the same thing because once I created Kubotabooks a lot of stuff came in. (Originally anyone could upload files directly to Kubotabooks but I had to stop that system because I was getting too much porn, of course).

Anyway, here we are today. The ads clicks and donations barely cover the hosting costs and I've considered ditching the whole thing (for reasons including the copyright issue) but I think it will be here for a while yet.

I think I have an updated WSM for Kubota B1710, B2110, B2410 and B2710
with a copyright date of February 2001. It is in PDF form and I purchased this manual. Is this something you would like to have uploaded to Kubotabooks.com?