Kubota refuses to honor my 5 Year Emissions Warranty on my B3350

[SDT]

I agree..but Kubota Customer Care is saying


after speaking with dealership and our field service representative
The unit only has 1 active code for a PM5 P3008. After reviewing the active code and the past codes there was PM 3 and PM 4 which were staged approximately .8 hrs apart as they set the code.

With the unit at a PM5 the only way to proceed is to replace the DPF. This is per emissions requirements EPA. When removing the 3 sensors from the old DPF the threads stripped out do to the heat that the DPF experiencing over the years. That is why the sensors needed to be replaced. Once the DPF was replaced Nick stated that M&R completed 4 regens cycles complete. No error codes were activated so the unit was repaired correctly.

With only a PM 5 P3008 error code according to the bulletin issued by Kubota this doesn't fall under the limited lifetime reformer warranty. It is very clear in the bulletin that only a P3008 error code does not warrant a warranty repair.

Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused you.

As previously stated, repairs should be covered under federally mandated 5-year emissions warranty.

If, as I have been told, failure occurred within the 5-year period, PSB is irrelevant in this case.

 

[SDT]

Find a lawyer that deals with farm equipment and knows warranties. And if issue has been well documented, as posted above, check out a class action lawyer too. Otherwise, you will need to get it repaired if you want to sell it to get something out of it. Is it paid off?

Might be able to find a desperate attorney who will take the individual case.

Virtually no chance that any tort attorney will attempt a class action in this case.

 

[lugbolt]

it's my understanding that the reformer system isn't the dpf, rather the type system that controls the fuel injection AND with that, also controls how and when the dpf regenerates.

B3350's are basically a mechanically injected diesel engine (the old style) but they have like a blower and an additional injector. The additional injector injects fuel into the exhaust stream along with air from a blower, that ignites and warms up the DPF to cause the soot to be "regenerated". It's an overly complex system that accomplishes the exact same thing as the electronically controlled fuel injection system on, like the L3301 and L3302, etc. The ZD1511 uses the same system as the B3350, FYI.

It originally was not well thought out, nor well designed. Problematic, and Kubota has introduced a number of changes to help. The newer ones are certainly better but the older ones are still out there, those are the problem children that people paid a lot of money for, and they didn't get what they were promised. Those are the folks I feel for. No, I really do.

If you go the legal system route, prepare to wait. Possibly years. The systems don't get in any hurry unless you're placed in a higher priority level-which rarely happens with this type thing. If you go that route, do not go making threats to any dealer or personnel. Just do it, keep your mouth shut and go on with life. If you go into the dealer and tell em you're taking them to court, it gives them a reason to "prepare" a case. Avoid that if possible. Kind of like a problematic neighbor's pest animal. shoot, shovel, and shut up. SSS.

You have 2 or maybe 3 other dealers in the area. Can you go to one of the others and ask them for guidance? If you have any documentation-say a repair order, etc, take that with you and explain the situation. If they say no, you already know your other options. If they want to deal with it, pick your tractor up or have it picked up (wrecker?) and carry it to them. Basically a second opinion.

Typically when you call customer service, they will usually alert the territory rep. There's not but a few of them in the entire USA, they stay busy, so it can take some time. I dealt with the one in the central division many many times over the years. Good guy, but like everyone else, he had a boss to work under too. Rules, regulations, laws, etc....

I've dealt with both sabrina and sergio. Never had a lot of luck with them but my cirumstances were different, as a tech. maybe try calling and maybe you can ask for someone but them?

 

[whitetiger]

Still cannot understand why Kubota would deny this claim unless (as I suspect) the dealer has told Kubota incorrect or fraudulent information in order to protect itself.

The dealership should have performed a Forced Manual reGen rather than telling the owner to keep running it. This is where the DPF went into Stage 5, which is why it shut off when they tried to move it later.

She stated the dealership told them it has performed 4 ReGens so it is correct now. They would have been performing Forced Manual ReGens, so they do not know how it will perform when it Auto ReGens.

 

[SDT]

The dealership should have performed a Forced Manual reGen rather than telling the owner to keep running it. This is where the DPF went into Stage 5, which is why it shut off when they tried to move it later.

She stated the dealership told them it has performed 4 ReGens so it is correct now. They would have been performing Forced Manual ReGens, so they do not know how it will perform when it Auto ReGens.

Bingo.

I believe that dealer is trying to protect itself at the owner's expense.

 

[whitetiger]

Bingo.

I believe that dealer is trying to protect itself at the owner's expense.

That is exactly what it sounds like is happening.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

This is a sad thread to read!

 

[SDT]

it's my understanding that the reformer system isn't the dpf, rather the type system that controls the fuel injection AND with that, also controls how and when the dpf regenerates.

B3350's are basically a mechanically injected diesel engine (the old style) but they have like a blower and an additional injector. The additional injector injects fuel into the exhaust stream along with air from a blower, that ignites and warms up the DPF to cause the soot to be "regenerated". It's an overly complex system that accomplishes the exact same thing as the electronically controlled fuel injection system on, like the L3301 and L3302, etc. The ZD1511 uses the same system as the B3350, FYI.

It originally was not well thought out, nor well designed. Problematic, and Kubota has introduced a number of changes to help. The newer ones are certainly better but the older ones are still out there, those are the problem children that people paid a lot of money for, and they didn't get what they were promised. Those are the folks I feel for. No, I really do.

If you go the legal system route, prepare to wait. Possibly years. The systems don't get in any hurry unless you're placed in a higher priority level-which rarely happens with this type thing. If you go that route, do not go making threats to any dealer or personnel. Just do it, keep your mouth shut and go on with life. If you go into the dealer and tell em you're taking them to court, it gives them a reason to "prepare" a case. Avoid that if possible. Kind of like a problematic neighbor's pest animal. shoot, shovel, and shut up. SSS.

You have 2 or maybe 3 other dealers in the area. Can you go to one of the others and ask them for guidance? If you have any documentation-say a repair order, etc, take that with you and explain the situation. If they say no, you already know your other options. If they want to deal with it, pick your tractor up or have it picked up (wrecker?) and carry it to them. Basically a second opinion.

Typically when you call customer service, they will usually alert the territory rep. There's not but a few of them in the entire USA, they stay busy, so it can take some time. I dealt with the one in the central division many many times over the years. Good guy, but like everyone else, he had a boss to work under too. Rules, regulations, laws, etc....

I've dealt with both sabrina and sergio. Never had a lot of luck with them but my cirumstances were different, as a tech. maybe try calling and maybe you can ask for someone but them?

The reformer is the device that injects fuel and air into the exhaust stream to raise the temperature during regens. Yes, they have been problematic from day one.

Yes, improvements were made during the production run and the newer ones are better.

OPs tractor will almost certainly continue to cause trouble until the reformer is replaced with latest revision version. Yes, it may do so even afterward.

Your suggestion to ask for a supervisor is good advice.

 

[whitetiger]

Here is an basic explanation of the Reformer system.

 

[PaulL]

So, if I roll all that back.

I think the OP has sent the tractor in, the tractor has been repaired, the dealership is saying "not covered under warranty, you need to pay."

My view of some of the options offered on this thread:

1. Take it to another dealer. Why? It's already fixed. What can another dealer do - it's not like the new dealer will pay the old dealer, who believe they're owed money
2. Get a lawyer. I get it, it's the USA, so of course you need a lawyer. But what's the likely return - i.e. can you possibly pay a lawyer, take a law suit, win the case, and end up with enough money to be worth your time and stress? Unless you're getting damages or costs on top of whatever award, surely the $5K owed on the repair is way less than whatever a lawyer would cost?

So, I think realistically what you're looking for is a more sympathetic ear in either Kubota or in the dealership as the best way to resolve it.

If it were me, I'd start by going into the dealership in person with my story very clearly documented, and make sure you know exactly what your reason is for believing that it should be covered.

The first part is to clearly understand their view. so you know what you're arguing against. From reading the thread, I think what they're saying is that:

• the tractor has alerted that it needs regen multiple times, and that has been ignored by the operator. Potentially this was done by your father before you got the machine, potentially it was done by you in not understanding that it needed regen
• Their diagnostic says those warnings were 0.8 hrs apart (so 50 minutes apart), and presumably they know at least what hours that occurred at, if not date/time
• It has then reached level 5 sooting up because the regen didn't occur, and when that happens it needs replacing, and that's expected behaviour if you ignore the regens (i.e. that's not a warranty issue, that's user fault).
• As part of the replacement some bolts stripped (presumably they're plastic?), and they blame that stripping on overheating, in turn they believe caused by it not having had a regen (is that likely to be true? Can not doing a regen lead to overheating? Someone else might comment on that)
• They believe that you're outside the Kubota warranty, so no need for Kubota to pay / Kubota won't pay

So, which of those bits do you dispute? Again, from the thread I think the bits you'd dispute are:

• You had issues with the tractor early on, and you called them. They advised you what to do, you followed their advice. So if there was a problem with the tractor not having a regen, surely that's their fault because you followed their advice? The question is whether you can demonstrate that, or get them to reasonably believe that. Someone else can perhaps comment on whether if you did a regen at the time and let it run to completion, you should reasonably expect that the DPF wasn't sooted up. Or whether the dealer is perhaps correct in that it was maybe already sooted up, and even though you did the regen as asked it was too late, so still user error. That doesn't seem quite right to me, because it shouldn't have run a regen to completion if it was too sooted up. It feels like you have a solid argument here, but I think this relies on how many hours you did between when that regen finished and when the problem happened - i.e. is there an argument that the regen was fine, but then you used the tractor some more and sooted it up to level 5 since that regen? If the dealer information about when the regen warnings occurred includes number of hours, then presumably it also knows that the regen ran to completion, and how many tractor hours ago that was
• It's not the Kubota warranty that you're claiming under, it's the mandated 5 year emissions warranty. Irrespective of what you did or didn't do, I think the argument is that the emissions system is covered, this is clearly the emissions system. I don't know enough about what the mandated 5 year warranty covers, but if they can't claim user error on it (someone else may comment whether that warranty fixes things irrespective of user error), then telling the dealer that's your claim may remove one of their arguments
• You were originally advised (verbally or in writing?) that it would be covered under warranty. You expect them to honour that, particularly given that they've undertaken work that you reasonably expected was covered under warranty, and they're now asking you to pay. If they'd told you that payment was contingent on what they found, you would have treated it differently at the time. They can't undertake work that you didn't agree to pay for, without an estimate or any other advice on potential costs, and then require you to pay for it.

I know there's a tendency to blame the dealer, and this dealer does sound to be relatively low quality. But you do have to also put yourself in their shoes if you want to talk them out of this. From their viewpoint:

• You brought a tractor in to be repaired
• They investigated it, and were told by Kubota it wasn't covered by warranty
• They repaired it
• They want someone to pay. If Kubota won't pay, they want you to pay, otherwise they're eating a $5K cost
• Dealers don't do warranty work for free, and have no liability/risk for warranties - the warranty goes back to Kubota.

So ultimately you need to convince them that either they're wrong / have presented wrong to Kubota, and Kubota will actually pay. Or you need to convince them that the fact that this work needed to be done was the Dealership's fault, and therefore they're liable to eat the $5k charge. Either because they gave you bad advice that led to the failure, because they undertook work that you hadn't agreed to without getting commitment to pay (this one's kind of hard), or because they told you that it would be covered in warranty and then it wasn't.

The easiest path by far is to get everyone to agree that Kubota should pay, so that would be where I'd focus first. Anything else will be very hard for the dealer to agree to, so whether you're right or not, it will be a more difficult discussion.

I guess, failing all that, the other path is to say "I inherited a tractor, which was a windfall because I didn't expect a tractor. Turns out my father didn't maintain the tractor as well as he could have, which can happen with old people. The tractor that was worth $25K now has a $5K debt on it, so I could sell it and pay off the debt, and I still have $20K I didn't expect to have." Not ideal, but still not as bad as it could be. Sometimes life gives you lemons.

 

[22R]

So, if I roll all that back.

I think the OP has sent the tractor in, the tractor has been repaired, the dealership is saying "not covered under warranty, you need to pay."

My view of some of the options offered on this thread:

1. Take it to another dealer. Why? It's already fixed. What can another dealer do - it's not like the new dealer will pay the old dealer, who believe they're owed money
2. Get a lawyer. I get it, it's the USA, so of course you need a lawyer. But what's the likely return - i.e. can you possibly pay a lawyer, take a law suit, win the case, and end up with enough money to be worth your time and stress? Unless you're getting damages or costs on top of whatever award, surely the $5K owed on the repair is way less than whatever a lawyer would cost?

So, I think realistically what you're looking for is a more sympathetic ear in either Kubota or in the dealership as the best way to resolve it.

If it were me, I'd start by going into the dealership in person with my story very clearly documented, and make sure you know exactly what your reason is for believing that it should be covered.

The first part is to clearly understand their view. so you know what you're arguing against. From reading the thread, I think what they're saying is that:

• the tractor has alerted that it needs regen multiple times, and that has been ignored by the operator. Potentially this was done by your father before you got the machine, potentially it was done by you in not understanding that it needed regen
• Their diagnostic says those warnings were 0.8 hrs apart (so 50 minutes apart), and presumably they know at least what hours that occurred at, if not date/time
• It has then reached level 5 sooting up because the regen didn't occur, and when that happens it needs replacing, and that's expected behaviour if you ignore the regens (i.e. that's not a warranty issue, that's user fault).
• As part of the replacement some bolts stripped (presumably they're plastic?), and they blame that stripping on overheating, in turn they believe caused by it not having had a regen (is that likely to be true? Can not doing a regen lead to overheating? Someone else might comment on that)
• They believe that you're outside the Kubota warranty, so no need for Kubota to pay / Kubota won't pay

So, which of those bits do you dispute? Again, from the thread I think the bits you'd dispute are:

• You had issues with the tractor early on, and you called them. They advised you what to do, you followed their advice. So if there was a problem with the tractor not having a regen, surely that's their fault because you followed their advice? The question is whether you can demonstrate that, or get them to reasonably believe that. Someone else can perhaps comment on whether if you did a regen at the time and let it run to completion, you should reasonably expect that the DPF wasn't sooted up. Or whether the dealer is perhaps correct in that it was maybe already sooted up, and even though you did the regen as asked it was too late, so still user error. That doesn't seem quite right to me, because it shouldn't have run a regen to completion if it was too sooted up. It feels like you have a solid argument here, but I think this relies on how many hours you did between when that regen finished and when the problem happened - i.e. is there an argument that the regen was fine, but then you used the tractor some more and sooted it up to level 5 since that regen? If the dealer information about when the regen warnings occurred includes number of hours, then presumably it also knows that the regen ran to completion, and how many tractor hours ago that was
• It's not the Kubota warranty that you're claiming under, it's the mandated 5 year emissions warranty. Irrespective of what you did or didn't do, I think the argument is that the emissions system is covered, this is clearly the emissions system. I don't know enough about what the mandated 5 year warranty covers, but if they can't claim user error on it (someone else may comment whether that warranty fixes things irrespective of user error), then telling the dealer that's your claim may remove one of their arguments
• You were originally advised (verbally or in writing?) that it would be covered under warranty. You expect them to honour that, particularly given that they've undertaken work that you reasonably expected was covered under warranty, and they're now asking you to pay. If they'd told you that payment was contingent on what they found, you would have treated it differently at the time. They can't undertake work that you didn't agree to pay for, without an estimate or any other advice on potential costs, and then require you to pay for it.

I know there's a tendency to blame the dealer, and this dealer does sound to be relatively low quality. But you do have to also put yourself in their shoes if you want to talk them out of this. From their viewpoint:

• You brought a tractor in to be repaired
• They investigated it, and were told by Kubota it wasn't covered by warranty
• They repaired it
• They want someone to pay. If Kubota won't pay, they want you to pay, otherwise they're eating a $5K cost
• Dealers don't do warranty work for free, and have no liability/risk for warranties - the warranty goes back to Kubota.

So ultimately you need to convince them that either they're wrong / have presented wrong to Kubota, and Kubota will actually pay. Or you need to convince them that the fact that this work needed to be done was the Dealership's fault, and therefore they're liable to eat the $5k charge. Either because they gave you bad advice that led to the failure, because they undertook work that you hadn't agreed to without getting commitment to pay (this one's kind of hard), or because they told you that it would be covered in warranty and then it wasn't.

The easiest path by far is to get everyone to agree that Kubota should pay, so that would be where I'd focus first. Anything else will be very hard for the dealer to agree to, so whether you're right or not, it will be a more difficult discussion.

I guess, failing all that, the other path is to say "I inherited a tractor, which was a windfall because I didn't expect a tractor. Turns out my father didn't maintain the tractor as well as he could have, which can happen with old people. The tractor that was worth $25K now has a $5K debt on it, so I could sell it and pay off the debt, and I still have $20K I didn't expect to have." Not ideal, but still not as bad as it could be. Sometimes life gives you lemons.

Very well laid out and thought provoking for OP to read.
Situation does suck but at this point they are logical steps that may help.
Best of luck to OP.

22R

 

[GreensvilleJay]

I'm curious
It seems that the tractor owner is responsible for 'pushing a button when a light comes on, to activate the 'regen' procedure.
This seems wrong to me. Shouldn't the tractor 'computer' do this ??
What happens if the 'light' doesn't come on ? Who is at fault ?
Sounds like the 'system' was a bodge from day one, Kubota KNOWS it, and should take 100% responsibility for it. It's that simple.

 

[SDT]

So, if I roll all that back.

I think the OP has sent the tractor in, the tractor has been repaired, the dealership is saying "not covered under warranty, you need to pay."

My view of some of the options offered on this thread:

1. Take it to another dealer. Why? It's already fixed. What can another dealer do - it's not like the new dealer will pay the old dealer, who believe they're owed money
2. Get a lawyer. I get it, it's the USA, so of course you need a lawyer. But what's the likely return - i.e. can you possibly pay a lawyer, take a law suit, win the case, and end up with enough money to be worth your time and stress? Unless you're getting damages or costs on top of whatever award, surely the $5K owed on the repair is way less than whatever a lawyer would cost?

So, I think realistically what you're looking for is a more sympathetic ear in either Kubota or in the dealership as the best way to resolve it.

If it were me, I'd start by going into the dealership in person with my story very clearly documented, and make sure you know exactly what your reason is for believing that it should be covered.

The first part is to clearly understand their view. so you know what you're arguing against. From reading the thread, I think what they're saying is that:

• the tractor has alerted that it needs regen multiple times, and that has been ignored by the operator. Potentially this was done by your father before you got the machine, potentially it was done by you in not understanding that it needed regen
• Their diagnostic says those warnings were 0.8 hrs apart (so 50 minutes apart), and presumably they know at least what hours that occurred at, if not date/time
• It has then reached level 5 sooting up because the regen didn't occur, and when that happens it needs replacing, and that's expected behaviour if you ignore the regens (i.e. that's not a warranty issue, that's user fault).
• As part of the replacement some bolts stripped (presumably they're plastic?), and they blame that stripping on overheating, in turn they believe caused by it not having had a regen (is that likely to be true? Can not doing a regen lead to overheating? Someone else might comment on that)
• They believe that you're outside the Kubota warranty, so no need for Kubota to pay / Kubota won't pay

So, which of those bits do you dispute? Again, from the thread I think the bits you'd dispute are:

• You had issues with the tractor early on, and you called them. They advised you what to do, you followed their advice. So if there was a problem with the tractor not having a regen, surely that's their fault because you followed their advice? The question is whether you can demonstrate that, or get them to reasonably believe that. Someone else can perhaps comment on whether if you did a regen at the time and let it run to completion, you should reasonably expect that the DPF wasn't sooted up. Or whether the dealer is perhaps correct in that it was maybe already sooted up, and even though you did the regen as asked it was too late, so still user error. That doesn't seem quite right to me, because it shouldn't have run a regen to completion if it was too sooted up. It feels like you have a solid argument here, but I think this relies on how many hours you did between when that regen finished and when the problem happened - i.e. is there an argument that the regen was fine, but then you used the tractor some more and sooted it up to level 5 since that regen? If the dealer information about when the regen warnings occurred includes number of hours, then presumably it also knows that the regen ran to completion, and how many tractor hours ago that was
• It's not the Kubota warranty that you're claiming under, it's the mandated 5 year emissions warranty. Irrespective of what you did or didn't do, I think the argument is that the emissions system is covered, this is clearly the emissions system. I don't know enough about what the mandated 5 year warranty covers, but if they can't claim user error on it (someone else may comment whether that warranty fixes things irrespective of user error), then telling the dealer that's your claim may remove one of their arguments
• You were originally advised (verbally or in writing?) that it would be covered under warranty. You expect them to honour that, particularly given that they've undertaken work that you reasonably expected was covered under warranty, and they're now asking you to pay. If they'd told you that payment was contingent on what they found, you would have treated it differently at the time. They can't undertake work that you didn't agree to pay for, without an estimate or any other advice on potential costs, and then require you to pay for it.

I know there's a tendency to blame the dealer, and this dealer does sound to be relatively low quality. But you do have to also put yourself in their shoes if you want to talk them out of this. From their viewpoint:

• You brought a tractor in to be repaired
• They investigated it, and were told by Kubota it wasn't covered by warranty
• They repaired it
• They want someone to pay. If Kubota won't pay, they want you to pay, otherwise they're eating a $5K cost
• Dealers don't do warranty work for free, and have no liability/risk for warranties - the warranty goes back to Kubota.

So ultimately you need to convince them that either they're wrong / have presented wrong to Kubota, and Kubota will actually pay. Or you need to convince them that the fact that this work needed to be done was the Dealership's fault, and therefore they're liable to eat the $5k charge. Either because they gave you bad advice that led to the failure, because they undertook work that you hadn't agreed to without getting commitment to pay (this one's kind of hard), or because they told you that it would be covered in warranty and then it wasn't.

The easiest path by far is to get everyone to agree that Kubota should pay, so that would be where I'd focus first. Anything else will be very hard for the dealer to agree to, so whether you're right or not, it will be a more difficult discussion.

I guess, failing all that, the other path is to say "I inherited a tractor, which was a windfall because I didn't expect a tractor. Turns out my father didn't maintain the tractor as well as he could have, which can happen with old people. The tractor that was worth $25K now has a $5K debt on it, so I could sell it and pay off the debt, and I still have $20K I didn't expect to have." Not ideal, but still not as bad as it could be. Sometimes life gives you lemons.

FWIW, stripped "bolts" are not plastic but, rather, steel. No way to be certain, but I suspect the damage to the sensors was due to tech incompetence.

ECM controls regens and will shut down engine in certain conditions. ECM will not allow engine to overheat due to clogged DPF. There are, IIRC, three temperature sensors in DPF so expect ECM will shut engine off before DPF temperature causes DPF damage. Here, DPF must be replaced because it is clogged beyond point where reformer system can clear it. DPF is not designed to be disassembled.

For sake of those not familiar with 3350, emissions system instructions in Operator's Manual are complicated and unclear. (As mechanic, engineer, and attorney, trust me.) Moreover, emissions system labels (decals) on ROPS (inside cab on cab models) are actually incorrect on some (many/most?) tractors due to firmware changes in ECM rolled out after assembly. Dealers rarely, if ever, replace such decals when tractors in shop for service or repair. Those on mine were replaced only because I insisted that such be done.

Agreed, that legal resolution not viable in this case.

 

[SDT]

I'm curious
It seems that the tractor owner is responsible for 'pushing a button when a light comes on, to activate the 'regen' procedure.
This seems wrong to me. Shouldn't the tractor 'computer' do this ??
What happens if the 'light' doesn't come on ? Who is at fault ?
Sounds like the 'system' was a bodge from day one, Kubota KNOWS it, and should take 100% responsibility for it. It's that simple.

No, regen is designed to occur without operator intervention providing certain conditions, e.g., engine temperature, inhibit button NOY pushed, etc., have been met.

Yes, reformer-based DPF system has been very problematic since roll-out, which is why Kubota redesigned the system, did away with the 3350 and replaced it with the electronically injected (no reformer) LX3310. VW, etc., also canned the reformer-based system, as did, I believe, all other manufacturers that once used it.

Yes, Kubota well knows of the problems associated with the B3350 and other machines using the same engine, which is why they instituted the non-publicized (internal policy) so-called "lifetime emissions warranty." Certainly, a step in the right direction, but too little and too late in my opinion.

 

[Hydro]

Light loads and turning the engine off before it is fully heated is a big problem on these small engines . The DPF needs heat to work , and usually on the small tractors this does not happen often enough .

The system on the 3350 was a cluster from the start , just to be in compliance . The lack of customer education on operating the DPF system was also a problem -- still is a problem

If the unit has passed a forced regen , then the dealer should have reset the code count to turn off the P3008 code - and start the counter again

Since this is a mechanical injected engine , remove the system and put an old style exhaust manifold on there