D1105 Won't start after rebuild

[yeltsin71]

Have completely rebuilt a D1105 engine after it overheated and seized. Eveything is working OK, turns over, glow plugs work and have diesel at the injectors, but it won't start. Fuel is not an issue and preheat is OK - I put compression tester on it and only gettting 200psi (instead of 400+). I pulled engine out again and checked the timing marks and all OK, put it back together and same issue (not surprising).

It cranks really slowly - like really working to turn over but wont fire. Put my hand over the exhaust and seem to be sucking and blowing - this would indicate a timing issue right? I am about to pull the engine out again to check timing but I am absolutely sure all timing marks lined up....

Valve clearances are all set to spec for this engine.

Anything else I should look at, or any ideas on why timing would be out if timing marks are aligned? Wondering if something else was damaged when the engine seized - I didn't see any issues when had it apart - anywhere I should be looking? Could a keyway have sheared off and the therefore things are out of alignment.

This has me stumped

 

[Henro]

Have completely rebuilt a D1105 engine after it overheated and seized. Eveything is working OK, turns over, glow plugs work and have diesel at the injectors, but it won't start. Fuel is not an issue and preheat is OK - I put compression tester on it and only gettting 200psi (instead of 400+). I pulled engine out again and checked the timing marks and all OK, put it back together and same issue (not surprising).

It cranks really slowly - like really working to turn over but wont fire. Put my hand over the exhaust and seem to be sucking and blowing - this would indicate a timing issue right? I am about to pull the engine out again to check timing but I am absolutely sure all timing marks lined up....

Valve clearances are all set to spec for this engine.

Anything else I should look at, or any ideas on why timing would be out if timing marks are aligned? Wondering if something else was damaged when the engine seized - I didn't see any issues when had it apart - anywhere I should be looking? Could a keyway have sheared off and the therefore things are out of alignment.

This has me stumped

Long shot question, but is the starter original and did it start the engine previously?

This question is rooted in a previous thread where a person bought a tractor that would not start, and had been sitting for a few years, and it turned out that the previous owner had replaced the starter and put one in that turned to the engine backwards.

The cure in that case was to install a correct starter.

 

[InTheWoods]

...This has me stumped...

Dang. Me too.

Thinking out loud here...

I don't know if 200 psi compression pressure on a freshly rebuilt engine that is being cranked slowly is abnormal or not. I suppose that if a squirt of oil into the cylinder improved the number considerably, you could say it wasn't a valve timing issue. But yeah, seeing the exhaust suck does point to valve timing, but you say you're 'absolutely sure' all timing marks line up. Hmm.

When you crank it, do you see white smoke in the exhaust (i.e. vaporized fuel)? You should.

I like the reverse direction starter theory. Did you put in a new starter?

 

[eserv]

Dang. Me too.

Thinking out loud here...

I don't know if 200 psi compression pressure on a freshly rebuilt engine that is being cranked slowly is abnormal or not. I suppose that if a squirt of oil into the cylinder improved the number considerably, you could say it wasn't a valve timing issue. But yeah, seeing the exhaust suck does point to valve timing.

When you crank it, do you see white smoke in the exhaust (i.e. vaporized fuel)? You should.

You don't squirt oil into the cylinders of a diesel unless you want bent connecting rods! ( Bent connecting rods might be why this one won't start?)

 

[InTheWoods]

Yeah - I thought someone might mention that. I've done it and lived to tell the story with no damage, but too much oil will be a problem.

 

[Fedup]

As I see it, with 200 PSI compression (if that's accurate) the engine will never start. Why does it turn over so slow? Starter, battery, cables all come to mind, but maybe it's just too tight. How does it turn by hand? It's not a big engine, it should turn pretty easily. Where did the parts come from? Was EVERYTHING checked, measured, dry fitted, and such before and during assembly? Was the block bored for new pistons or just "cleaned up" a little? Bearings properly installed and all clearances properly checked? Way too many possibilities for error to rule anything out just yet.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Pull the injectors or the glow plugs, and you should be able to spin the engine by hand if you can't then there is a problem, bearings or rings are too tight.
As far as low compression, are they all the same measurement?
Are you doing the compression test with the proper adapter and proper tester?
And is the compression tester Known good, I've see a lot of faulty testers.
When you set the timing did you align all the gears up at one time?
Seen the crank gear put on backwards and reading a false mark.
Did all the shims go back under the injection pump?
Are the valves set too tight?

This is the timing mark alignment.
If you note 2 marks then the gear that it aligns to must have 2 marks.
Also the keyway for the crank is opposite the crank gear marks.
That may or may not always be the case.
Open it up and take pictures and we can tell you if it's right or not.

 

[Henro]

I see the OP is in New Zealand so I can understand he might be sleeping now… was wondering why there was no response from him….

 

[lugbolt]

definitely not gonna run at 200 psi if that's correct. If it were in front of me (and obviously it isnt), I'd look at why the compression readings are low. Rings, bent rods, leaking valves, gasket, whatever. I might even consider doing some sort of air pressure test on each cylinder and see if or where the air comes out.

 

[yeltsin71]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback Some things for me to look at. As Henro pointed out I am in New Zealand, so sorry for delayed response.

Does anyone know the correct rotation direction when looking from flywheel end?
I guess if spinning backwards it will be opening exhaust and then inlet .....

I will start with the starer motor and then hopefully rule that out - it does look new but I bought unit as blown engine so don't know history

Compression tester is new, but have nothing else to check it on to see if accurate - Will check all three injector ports and see if read the same.

Had the block re-sleeved professionally based on the new pistons I had purchased. Pretty sure it turns over by hand but will check. It definitely turned over freely by hand before putting head on, so not bearings or rings being too tight and I am fairly confident I have the valves gapped correctly.

I keep coming back to timing (why else would there be suck at exhaust?). Think I am going to have to pull the engine out again - doh! and check timing marks - again. Will also check all keyways etc although I didn't have these apart so should be correct if not damaged.

Thanks again everyone will report back when I have more to tell.

 

[yeltsin71]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback Some things for me to look at. As Henro pointed out I am in New Zealand, so sorry for delayed response.

Does anyone know the correct rotation direction when looking from flywheel end?
I guess if spinning backwards it will be opening exhaust and then inlet .....

I will start with the starer motor and then hopefully rule that out - it does look new but I bought unit as blown engine so don't know history

Compression tester is new, but have nothing else to check it on to see if accurate - Will check all three injector ports and see if read the same.

Had the block re-sleeved professionally based on the new pistons I had purchased. Pretty sure it turns over by hand but will check. It definitely turned over freely by hand before putting head on, so not bearings or rings being too tight and I am fairly confident I have the valves gapped correctly.

I keep coming back to timing (why else would there be suck at exhaust?). Think I am going to have to pull the engine out again - doh! and check timing marks - again. Will also check all keyways etc although I didn't have these apart so should be correct if not damaged.

Thanks again everyone will report back when I have more to tell.

Dang. Me too.

Thinking out loud here...

I don't know if 200 psi compression pressure on a freshly rebuilt engine that is being cranked slowly is abnormal or not. I suppose that if a squirt of oil into the cylinder improved the number considerably, you could say it wasn't a valve timing issue. But yeah, seeing the exhaust suck does point to valve timing, but you say you're 'absolutely sure' all timing marks line up. Hmm.

When you crank it, do you see white smoke in the exhaust (i.e. vaporized fuel)? You should.

I like the reverse direction starter theory. Did you put in a new starter?

Yeah I was getting white smoke

 

[yeltsin71]

Hi all, I have some updates.

The engine was cranking anticlockwise looking from flywheel end which is correct (right?) so ruled out starter motor issue. All three cylinders were showing about 200psi so issue affecting all three cylinders.

As I see it, with 200 PSI compression (if that's accurate) the engine will never start. Why does it turn over so slow? Starter, battery, cables all come to mind, but maybe it's just too tight. How does it turn by hand? It's not a big engine, it should turn pretty easily. Where did the parts come from? Was EVERYTHING checked, measured, dry fitted, and such before and during assembly? Was the block bored for new pistons or just "cleaned up" a little? Bearings properly installed and all clearances properly checked? Way too many possibilities for error to rule anything out just yet.

Pull the injectors or the glow plugs, and you should be able to spin the engine by hand if you can't then there is a problem, bearings or rings are too tight.
As far as low compression, are they all the same measurement?
Are you doing the compression test with the proper adapter and proper tester?
And is the compression tester Known good, I've see a lot of faulty testers.
When you set the timing did you align all the gears up at one time?
Seen the crank gear put on backwards and reading a false mark.
Did all the shims go back under the injection pump?
Are the valves set too tight?

This is the timing mark alignment.
If you note 2 marks then the gear that it aligns to must have 2 marks.
Also the keyway for the crank is opposite the crank gear marks.
That may or may not always be the case.
Open it up and take pictures and we can tell you if it's right or not.

Thanks for the ideas and the image. Mine looks the same but can't see the keyway due to the oilpump gear being in the way. Is there an easy way to pull the oil pump gear without having to pull the whole crank out?

Answers to other questions:
Can spin OK by hand with injectors removed
All cylinders approx same measurement
Compression tester is new and correct adapters used, but have nothing to calibrate against
All gears aligned at once, took a photo tonight and will try to upload to this thread
Crank timing gear could be on backwards? - is there a way to pull it without removing the whole crank?
All shims reinstalled - but don't think that would affect compression - assuming that's the issue of course.
I am happy with the valve settings

 

[GreensvilleJay]

hmm, all the gears in the picture look properly timed but I have a question...
Is there any way gear #4 ( camshaft ? ) could be installed 180* off ?
#3 and #5 show 'keys' so they can't be wrong
I can't tell how #1 is attached

 

[Henro]

Put my hand over the exhaust and seem to be sucking and blowing

In my mind I keep coming back to this statement.

Seems like if it were a problem with movement of combustion gasses through the engine, it would be more apparent than "seems to be..."

If someone could confirm that CCW rotation of the crankshaft as the OP described is correct, that would be helpful.

Sure sounds like compression is a main issue. Not impossible, but perhaps unlikely his compression guage is in error by 50%...

So what is the chances the gear on the crank is not positioned properly? No clue here...but certainly curious.

Slow turnover could be a battery issue, or a battery cable connection issue. Could be determined by voltage checks.

Not sure how one would verify calibration of the compression guage.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

In my mind I keep coming back to this statement.

Seems like if it were a problem with movement of combustion gasses through the engine, it would be more apparent than "seems to be..."

If someone could confirm that CCW rotation of the crankshaft as the OP described is correct, that would be helpful.

Sure sounds like compression is a main issue. Not impossible, but perhaps unlikely his compression guage is in error by 50%...

So what is the chances the gear on the crank is not positioned properly? No clue here...but certainly curious.

Slow turnover could be a battery issue, or a battery cable connection issue. Could be determined by voltage checks.

Not sure how one would verify calibration of the compression guage.

Along Henro's line, I'd pull the glow plugs and valve cover. Then start with #1 at TDC, preferably compression stroke, and turn it over manually in the correct direction (clockwise facing the front, I think), while watching the valve operation. If the valve operation isn't correct, the compression reading doesn't mean anything.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

FWIW...
from 2 websites.... the starter..
Features a clockwise rotation and 13 teeth on drive,

So the crankshaft probably turns CCW if starter connects direclty to the ringgear

crankshaft gear is keyed, so can't be the problem but still #4(camshaft) might be 180 out.

can anyone confirm/deny that is possible ?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

FWIW...
from 2 websites.... the starter..
Features a clockwise rotation and 13 teeth on drive,

So the crankshaft probably turns CCW if starter connects direclty to the ringgear

crankshaft gear is keyed, so can't be the problem but still #4(camshaft) might be 180 out.

can anyone confirm/deny that is possible ?

Impossible if all dots are lined up as his photo shows.
The cam can not be 180 out in this case.

 

[yeltsin71]

Impossible if all dots are lined up as his photo shows.
The cam can not be 180 out in this case.

Hi everyone I pulled the camshaft gear and it has key behind the retaining nut so all good there. All lined up ok.

Thought I’d pull the oil pump and timing gear off the crank to check the keyway but can’t get any separation between the gears to use gear puller and trying to pull both together I can’t get them to move- have tried penetrant and heat. Worried something will break if I keep cranking and don’t wanna do that as may not be anything wrong with them.

any suggestion's on how I can get them free would really love to check keyway as this is third time I’ve had it apart.

could key have sheared and is jamming the gears?

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Thanks NIW. I figured all gears would be keyed...but... better to ask than guess !

A sheared key in the crankshaft WILL toss timing off ! I've seen them on 20+-HP gas engines on riders as well as push mowers. They use aluminum keys..kind of a 'safety' thing to protect the engine when you hit a big tree root. They get mushed and flywheel moves .

WOW a REAL puller ! Nice to see the proper tool being used. I've used pickle forks and wrenches with success but BUT only after having a little gap to get behind the gear.

Have you tried a SHORT 'burb' with an air impact gun ? I do that to get stubborn flywheels off rider engines. Usually 1 burp, pause 4 steamboats, 2nd burp, clunk....off it comes

I'll keep a couple finger crossed for you ,hope to see 'tada' picture soon !

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Look under the bottom of the crank and you should see the key way slot even in the oil gear.
The slot is 180 degrees from the dots on the top.
I use 2 stiff putty knives, one on each side driven in between the oil drive gear and the crank gear to get them to split apart.
Unless the engine had something that stopped the crank with incredible force the chances are really really low that there is any damage to the key way.