Clean Water

[Trapper Bob]

I am having a building constructed on my farm. There will be a small apartment inside. I will not have access to rural water. There is a rock lined hand dug well, 42’ deep, about 5-6’ in diameter. The well currently has 17’ of water in it, but does fluctuate with the seasons. I have had the water tested. The water is hard, with high levels of manganese & sodium. The total dissolved solids are high. Everything else tested within the normal range & the microbiological parameters were very good. The water is clear.
I have contacted several water purification businesses. Each one has their own idea of how to clean up the water for use (drinking, cooking, showers, clothes washer). Various filters & reverse osmosis have been the common recommendation. Has anyone had these issues & how did you solve them?
There are two Elm trees with 18-20” trunks growing to close the well. I will remove these trees, but how would I kill them without poisoning the well?

 

[DustyRusty]

I would cut them down and then have the stumps ground down below the surface. You could also dig them out, but grinding is expensive, but so is digging them out, especially if they are large.
When I first had my well drilled, the well driller recommended 2 or 3 gallons of bleach be put in the well to clean it. I did that and waited a few months to have the water tested. It tested high for bacteria, iron, and a few other things. The water testing company suggested 5 pounds of swimming pool chlorine and to circulate it with the pump back into the well to clean the casing. 4 months later I had the water tested again, now bacteria, low iron, and overall good water. Being that yours is an open well, I would get a tight fitting cover over it to keep critters out and sanitizing the well long before you are going to need to use it.

 

[RCW]

Sounds like an impressive dug well at 42 feet deep. Never seen one quite that deep.

Manganese is harmless, but can cause aesthetic problems with grey or black stains like you'd see the red with iron. Common in hard water, which can cause white calcification.

What was the level of sodium? Did they give you a ppm or mg/l number?

There is no maximum quantity for sodium but adds to dietary intake. Can be a problem for folks with high blood pressure, etc.

There isn't a good treatment for excess sodium besides RO. I'm just wondering if it really is a concern. (We do have a couple areas of "salty" water in my area)

Water softeners can help with hardness. They can also help iron and manganese, but effectiveness depends on concentrations and oxidation state of them.

The way a softener works is by replacing calcium and other hardness components with sodium........

 

[RCW]

Just wanted to double check - you sure that's manganese and not magnesium?

Were these some kind of bona fide lab results, or something a treatment company gave you? I've had some issues with treatment company analyses many times.....

Magnesium is a common component of plain-old hard water, along with calcium....treated easily by softening.

I honestly don't recall from my peabrain if Elms are prone to root or stump sprout. I should know better. Sorry about that.

I would likely take them down and respond as needed in future years. I wouldn't chemically treat. I would grind them out when/if necessary.

The area around the dug well top should be dry. Don't want anything at the surface seeping into the well. Want groundwater only.

Shed any storm/surface water away by proper grading and impervious clay-type soil or concrete.

Want a good solid top/cover/enclosure that will keep out critters, bugs, bees, spiders, etc.

You're looking at a pump setting of 30+ feet below grade, so a shallow well pump likely won't do it.

Either suspend a submersible or use a 2-pipe deep well centrifugal.

I've been out of the business quite a while - so hope I'm not sending you off the beaten path. Been though these kinds of things many times, so I think I'm on solid ground so far.

 

[chim]

Our one building where I worked was on a well and the water had a bacterial problem. Any water used for consumption or drawn at the lunchroom sink was treated by an RO setup. I think they only filtered the water used in the bathrooms.

 

[RCW]

Our one building where I worked was on a well and the water had a bacterial problem. Any water used for consumption or drawn at the lunchroom sink was treated by an RO setup. I think they only filtered the water used in the bathrooms.

That's typical of the problems I had with some water treatment companies years ago.

RO is not the standard way to deal with a bacterial problem but does make more $$ for the water treatment outfit.

A pretty simple pellet chlorinator and a $50-100 of tablets/year and bacterial issue is gone in the whole building.

RO is much more maintenance and typically only serves certain user taps.

One entrepreneurial outfit used to hang empty water sample bottles on mailboxes. They hung one on my mailbox.......

They regretted that as all they were doing was taking advantage of homeowners and I told them so.

 

[RCW]

Lot of folks up here have Sulphur water. Bacterial action creates hydrogen sulfide and smell.

30 years ago, I saw homeowners buy fancy $3-5,000 treatment systems to fix it with high annual maintenance costs.

At the time for $700 a pellet chlorinator would fix it.

If there's chlorine in the water you will not smell sulphur.....bacteria are gone and any H2S is oxidized by the chlorine.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now......this was something I was passionate about decades ago.

I hated to see folks get taken advantage of.

If @Trapper Bob needs anything - - he'll probably ask someone else......

I'd love to see some pictures of that dug well! Seen 100's and never with that depth. Deepest was maybe 30'.

Seen couple 12-15' in diameter. All brick lined and would make almost 200 gpm if my memory serves.

 

[D2Cat]

Bob, are you living there in the cabin, or just wanting water available for stool, washing, etc? I would have the water tested by a state of Ks. inspection.

I have a hand dug well at my farm in Linn Co. It's 22' deep, 3' of mud on the bottom. Has a 6" concrete cap that has been there for many years, hand pump on top of a 2' sq 1/2" plate of steel. There is a 10" dia. hole in the plate with a lid bolted over it. I have a shallow well pump setting on top of the well with 1" suction going down about 17'. I have the pump going to an automatic cattle waterer and two hydrants. In 24 years I have never ran out of water, and a few times I pumped way more water then I needed just trying to see if I could drop the level to a troubled zone. Never did.

I had KCC (Kansas Corporation Commission) in Chanute test the well. I was concerned about oils wells contaminating the water. It's been several years, but there was no problems from their perspective. I then took samples to Culligan (in Olathe). Gave them two samples, told them one was from my well and one was from a neighbor's. Be sure not to get them mixed up. They called to tell my my neighbor's well was perfect, he needs nothing. My well, well we need to get together to discuss solutions. I asked to make sure they didn't get the samples mixed and they assured me they did not. That was the end of my contact with Culligan, and because of their response wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

I'd be inclined to get the well capped, remove the two trees. You didn't state how far from the well the trees are, but those trees removed my improve the volume of water in the well by a measurable amount. If you're main concern is drinking water, just bring some with you for a few months and see how the well does after getting another test.

For a well house I used a chest freezer setting right next to the concrete slab. Drilled a hole in the bottom of one end for the suction pipe. Driller two holes the the other end for electrical conduit and water line coming out. Wrapped with the black sealant used on roofs under shingles. Never been a problem. Never froze in winter.

 

[jyoutz]

Just wanted to double check - you sure that's manganese and not magnesium?

Were these some kind of bona fide lab results, or something a treatment company gave you? I've had some issues with treatment company analyses many times.....

Magnesium is a common component of plain-old hard water, along with calcium....treated easily by softening.

I honestly don't recall from my peabrain if Elms are prone to root or stump sprout. I should know better. Sorry about that.

I would likely take them down and respond as needed in future years. I wouldn't chemically treat. I would grind them out when/if necessary.

The area around the dug well top should be dry. Don't want anything at the surface seeping into the well. Want groundwater only.

Shed any storm/surface water away by proper grading and impervious clay-type soil or concrete.

Want a good solid top/cover/enclosure that will keep out critters, bugs, bees, spiders, etc.

You're looking at a pump setting of 30+ feet below grade, so a shallow well pump likely won't do it.

Either suspend a submersible or use a 2-pipe deep well centrifugal.

I've been out of the business quite a while - so hope I'm not sending you off the beaten path. Been though these kinds of things many times, so I think I'm on solid ground so far.

Elms don’t root or stump sprout. They do regenerate prolifically from the many thousands of seeds that rain down each spring.

 

[RCW]

Elms don’t root or stump sprout. They do regenerate prolifically from the many thousands of seeds that rain down each spring.

Thanks. I should know better…..

 

[jyoutz]

Thanks. I should know better…..

I had to think about this for a minute. Sometimes it almost seems like they sprout because they establish so prolifically from seeds.

 

[Trapper Bob]

I had to think about this for a minute. Sometimes it almost seems like they sprout because they establish so prolifically from seeds.

I will cut the Elms down. Both of them are right on the concrete cap of the well. They have caused that cap to move some. I’ll get some pics to post. There is a wind mill that used to pump water out of the well, directly over the cap, Elms growing in the base.
The water was tested by an independent company, who is not trying to sell me anything. I’ll copy the water report when I get the well pics.
It is manganese I am referring to, not magnesium.
It appears RO is the best option. I can get a system for about $2K or as much as $8K. I just don’t know if the latter is worth the extra $6K. I was hoping for some insight from the “off the grid” or “pretty near off the grid” folks.

 

[Trapper Bob]

Bob, are you living there in the cabin, or just wanting water available for stool, washing, etc? I would have the water tested by a state of Ks. inspection.

I have a hand dug well at my farm in Linn Co. It's 22' deep, 3' of mud on the bottom. Has a 6" concrete cap that has been there for many years, hand pump on top of a 2' sq 1/2" plate of steel. There is a 10" dia. hole in the plate with a lid bolted over it. I have a shallow well pump setting on top of the well with 1" suction going down about 17'. I have the pump going to an automatic cattle waterer and two hydrants. In 24 years I have never ran out of water, and a few times I pumped way more water then I needed just trying to see if I could drop the level to a troubled zone. Never did.

I had KCC (Kansas Corporation Commission) in Chanute test the well. I was concerned about oils wells contaminating the water. It's been several years, but there was no problems from their perspective. I then took samples to Culligan (in Olathe). Gave them two samples, told them one was from my well and one was from a neighbor's. Be sure not to get them mixed up. They called to tell my my neighbor's well was perfect, he needs nothing. My well, well we need to get together to discuss solutions. I asked to make sure they didn't get the samples mixed and they assured me they did not. That was the end of my contact with Culligan, and because of their response wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

I'd be inclined to get the well capped, remove the two trees. You didn't state how far from the well the trees are, but those trees removed my improve the volume of water in the well by a measurable amount. If you're main concern is drinking water, just bring some with you for a few months and see how the well does after getting another test.

For a well house I used a chest freezer setting right next to the concrete slab. Drilled a hole in the bottom of one end for the suction pipe. Driller two holes the the other end for electrical conduit and water line coming out. Wrapped with the black sealant used on roofs under shingles. Never been a problem. Never froze in winter.

The Elms are touching the concrete cap (the cap is about 7’ square) & have engulfed 2 of the wind mill legs that are over the cap. I believe the wind mill provided stock water back in the day. I know these Elms suck a bunch of water out of the well. The Elms also provide some nice shade for me to park under during this KS heat. The new building will provide new shade, & the Elms will go away.
This building will house a small apartment, so I can stay on the farm when working on projects. Sometimes, my wife comes with me, helps where she can, but does not like peeing in the woods. She gets a bathroom, I get a building. My primary residence is in Andover (about an hour away). The well is about 40’ from the building & 80’ from the apartment. I can’t get rural water because there is not enough pressure to allow a connection from the N. Rural water is 2 miles away to the S. My building sets about 1/4 mile off the road. Running a water line that far (2 1/4 miles) is cost prohibitive.
The water was tested by an independent company, who is not trying to sell me anything. We used them at work for environmental issues.
D2Cat, we gotta meet sometime. Your innovation & repurposing of old equipment is really neat.

 

[Trapper Bob]

Elms don’t root or stump sprout. They do regenerate prolifically from the many thousands of seeds that rain down each spring.

I hope you are right about the re-sprouting . I have many chemicals that will kill them, but can’t use those chemicals since the roots are in my potential drinking water. I did have to remove 2 huge Elm trees (4’+) the were in the footprint of my building. I cut them down & the stumps were removed by a track hoe.

 

[D2Cat]

The Elms are touching the concrete cap (the cap is about 7’ square) & have engulfed 2 of the wind mill legs that are over the cap. I believe the wind mill provided stock water back in the day. I know these Elms suck a bunch of water out of the well. The Elms also provide some nice shade for me to park under during this KS heat. The new building will provide new shade, & the Elms will go away.
This building will house a small apartment, so I can stay on the farm when working on projects. Sometimes, my wife comes with me, helps where she can, but does not like peeing in the woods. She gets a bathroom, I get a building. My primary residence is in Andover (about an hour away). The well is about 40’ from the building & 80’ from the apartment. I can’t get rural water because there is not enough pressure to allow a connection from the N. Rural water is 2 miles away to the S. My building sets about 1/4 mile off the road. Running a water line that far (2 1/4 miles) is cost prohibitive.
The water was tested by an independent company, who is not trying to sell me anything. We used them at work for environmental issues.
D2Cat, we gotta meet sometime. Your innovation & repurposing of old equipment is really neat.

With the tree that close to the well I'd be concerned about the roots pushing the rock wall casing in. That would ruin the wells integrity.

Post a picture of the well area. Is the windmill all there? If its not too far gone I'd rebuild it and use it when needed for watering garden, livestock, etc. There is a windmill restoration forum on FB.

I'd consider cutting the trees down but I might leave the stumps in place a couple feet above the ground--no digging or grinding. I'd also check with someone at soil conservation office or local chemical sales company to get clarity on any chemical to use to kill tree stumps. I would think a ring of Tordon on the outer growth ring of those stumps would never get to the water, yet stop all growth.

 

[RCW]

I agree with D2Cat- I wouldn’t do anything besides cutting the trees down with them that close. Leave the stumps.

I certainly wouldn’t try to dig the stumps out. Too great a chance of compromising the structure of the well.

 

[Trapper Bob]

With the tree that close to the well I'd be concerned about the roots pushing the rock wall casing in. That would ruin the wells integrity.

Post a picture of the well area. Is the windmill all there? If its not too far gone I'd rebuild it and use it when needed for watering garden, livestock, etc. There is a windmill restoration forum on FB.

I'd consider cutting the trees down but I might leave the stumps in place a couple feet above the ground--no digging or grinding. I'd also check with someone at soil conservation office or local chemical sales company to get clarity on any chemical to use to kill tree stumps. I would think a ring of Tordon on the outer growth ring of those stumps would never get to the water, yet stop all growth.

The Elm trees are against the concrete cap on the well. They have the base of the windmill jacked up. I’m thinking cutting the down to ground level. I will not dig them out.
The rock lining is still round on the inside of this well. You can see where the pump jack was attached.

 

[Daren Todd]

Lot of folks up here have Sulphur water. Bacterial action creates hydrogen sulfide and smell.

30 years ago, I saw homeowners buy fancy $3-5,000 treatment systems to fix it with high annual maintenance costs.

At the time for $700 a pellet chlorinator would fix it.

If there's chlorine in the water you will not smell sulphur.....bacteria are gone and any H2S is oxidized by the chlorine.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now......this was something I was passionate about decades ago.

I hated to see folks get taken advantage of.

If @Trapper Bob needs anything - - he'll probably ask someone else......

I'd love to see some pictures of that dug well! Seen 100's and never with that depth. Deepest was maybe 30'.

Seen couple 12-15' in diameter. All brick lined and would make almost 200 gpm if my memory serves.

Hmm... that's interesting about the Sulphur water.

Around here, the prime areas for natural gas production and oil wells, also have a tendency to have Sulphur in the water wells.

North if us where the oil patch starts, it's the case. In around our property though, it's hard water.

 

[D2Cat]

Order your American Made Windmills from Midwest Windmill. Complete windmills 6ft, 8ft and 10ft wheels and towers 21ft, 27ft, 33ft and 40ft 660-341-8951.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

OK, I have to ask...
WHY did you allow those trees to grow next to your well ?

Silly neighbour has a tree 2 feet from foundation and wonders why basement leaks.....

Guess you don't have Dutch Elm disease yet ??