L3901 Loader Failure

Yotekiller

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Let me be the first to say that we ALL appreciate your knowledge and willingness to help, Dan. You have helped me, and I have seen you help many others. Thank you!
 
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TheOldHokie

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Let me be the first to say that we ALL appreciate your knowledge and willingness to help, Dan. You have helped me, and I have seen you help many others. Thank you!
Thanks very much. Its one of the things I can still do with mÿ reduced physical condition and I enjoy puzzling a problem out.

Dan
 
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AllenBC

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I reconnected the 3rd func line. Now the backhoe works. Also set the 3-point hitch control to low. But the problem remains.

I mentioned earlier that pushing the control lever forward to lower the arms was tending to cause them to rise - now that backwards response is stronger.

Thank you for your patience, and I appreciate your help.
 

Moose7060

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Let me be the first to say that we ALL appreciate your knowledge and willingness to help, Dan. You have helped me, and I have seen you help many others. Thank you!
Absolutely correct Yotekiller. TheOldHokie really is a wealth of information here.
 
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TheOldHokie

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I reconnected the 3rd func line. Now the backhoe works. Also set the 3-point hitch control to low. But the problem remains.

I mentioned earlier that pushing the control lever forward to lower the arms was tending to cause them to rise - now that backwards response is stronger.

Thank you for your patience, and I appreciate your help.
If the backhoe works but the loader does not the power beyond loop is working properly.

That brings us back to the couplers on tje loader. My first question is do you have the bucket and boom couplers on tje correct ports? Bucket going up as you describe is indicative of bucket spool connected to boom cylinders. Double check those connections and if needed I can provide the factory color coding. Once you are sure they are in the proper order we can do a better test of the couplers.

Dan
 
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AllenBC

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You are putting a lot of words into the thread that don’t answer the question of exactly how it is currently hooked up.

Could you make a sketch and take a picture of that and post it? That would make it plain how it is or was hooked up, since you also seem to be making changes fairly quickly.

Just slow down and think of it as flow through one hose to another hose with valves that only divert the flow when they are activated.

The (potential) pressure from the pump should be able to get into each valve (P) and then out of that valve (PB or sometimes T) and go to the next valve. If you are capping of that flow the pump can deadhead unless it has some pressure relief in place. You can see that in your diagram you posted above.

I think you can simplify the system to eliminate anything except the loader and 3PH but you don’t need to if you know it worked in the past when arranged in exactly the same manner as it is now.

And are you saying that you have moved four complete quick couplers (eight pieces) around on the loader and the problem did not follow the sets? I am unclear on that. I know you moved male connectors and female connectors around but not 100% sure what you did so perhaps post pictures of what you moved around. Most of these problems seem to be solved by replacing a coupler that is defective is why I am asking you about these again.
Sorry I didn't answer earlier - I missed your post.

Here is the problem: Initially the loader would not lower when the control stick was pushed forward. It would rise, but jerky. This problem started as an intermittent malfunction that has steadily gotten worse. Now pushing the stick forward raises the arms. Curl and dump work fine. Float function also fine. This problem started independent of any change in the hydraulics setup. All was working until it started not to work.

Here is what I have done:

1. Switched the female ends of the quick connects to the loader on the spool valve - A to A and B to B. The problem followed the side of the spool valve; was with arms then shifted to bucket. Switched them back.

2. Switched the male ends in the same manner with the same result. Left them switched.

3. Removed the spool valve and had it inspected by a mobile mechanic who also had it examined by a hydraulics shop. No problem was found by either one although they could not see the internal passages. They made the suggestion the monoblock may have as crack that is widening with time. They advised a new $1070 (+ tax & del) spool valve.

4. At some point I disconnected the power beyond to my WR Long 3rd func controller. That made no difference and it's reconnected now.

5. The 3-point hitch is not connected to an implement because my BH77 backhoe is mounted , but initially it was in the full up position. Lowering it made no difference.

6. Although I have read many times that loader function problems are almost always not the control valve, with the opinions from mobile mechanic and hydraulic shop I put in an order for a new FEL valve then started posting hoping Dan would jump in and show how they were wrong and I could cancel the order. He has tried and may yet guide me to a solution so I can cancel the order.
 

TheOldHokie

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Sorry I didn't answer earlier - I missed your post.

Here is the problem: Initially the loader would not lower when the control stick was pushed forward. It would rise, but jerky. This problem started as an intermittent malfunction that has steadily gotten worse. Now pushing the stick forward raises the arms. Curl and dump work fine. Float function also fine. This problem started independent of any change in the hydraulics setup. All was working until it started not to work.

Here is what I have done:

1. Switched the female ends of the quick connects to the loader on the spool valve - A to A and B to B. The problem followed the side of the spool valve; was with arms then shifted to bucket. Switched them back.

2. Switched the male ends in the same manner with the same result. Left them switched.

3. Removed the spool valve and had it inspected by a mobile mechanic who also had it examined by a hydraulics shop. No problem was found by either one although they could not see the internal passages. They made the suggestion the monoblock may have as crack that is widening with time. They advised a new $1070 (+ tax & del) spool valve.

4. At some point I disconnected the power beyond to my WR Long 3rd func controller. That made no difference and it's reconnected now.

5. The 3-point hitch is not connected to an implement because my BH77 backhoe is mounted , but initially it was in the full up position. Lowering it made no difference.

6. Although I have read many times that loader function problems are almost always not the control valve, with the opinions from mobile mechanic and hydraulic shop I put in an order for a new FEL valve then started posting hoping Dan would jump in and show how they were wrong and I could cancel the order. He has tried and may yet guide me to a solution so I can cancel the order.
Unless you like wasting money cancel the order.

You have confused the diagnostics testing so much none of your conclusionsv can be trusted and we need to start from scratch.

Dan
 

AllenBC

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If the backhoe works but the loader does not the power beyond loop is working properly.

That brings us back to the couplers on tje loader. My first question is do you have the bucket and boom couplers on tje correct ports? Bucket going up as you describe is indicative of bucket spool connected to boom cylinders. Double check those connections and if needed I can provide the factory color coding. Once you are sure they are in the proper order we can do a better test of the couplers.

Dan
Bucket and boom connectors are on the correct spool valve ports. Bucket works fine, boom now goes up when stick is pushed forward. It's easy to be sure they are connected correctly due to the easy to tell apart color-coded collars on both male and female quick connects.

That business of the boom going up when pushed to the down function is real - it makes a very small jerk down, then goes up the same as if I pulled back on the stick. It wasn't doing this a few days ago when I first started trying to sort the problem.
 

TheOldHokie

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Bucket and boom connectors are on the correct spool valve ports. Bucket works fine, boom now goes up when stick is pushed forward. It's easy to be sure they are connected correctly due to the easy to tell apart color-coded collars on both male and female quick connects.

That business of the boom going up when pushed to the down function is real - it makes a very small jerk down, then goes up the same as if I pulled back on the stick. It wasn't doing this a few days ago when I first started trying to sort the problem.
No offense but thats the sort of faulty logic that has lead you astray already.

The color coding is on the nipples and sockets and you had them all off the valve and could have scrambled the positions up. The nipples and sockets are matched but on what ports?

Here is a picture of the proper placement. Verify that matches yours and then we will test the boom operation. Its quick, easy, and definitive.

Dan
1000003172.jpg
 

AllenBC

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The collars on the male ends of the quick connects were not removed when they were swapped but I suppose they could have been so you wouldn't know that. Swapping the loader hoses by moving the female quick connects was one of the first things I tried before any other attempts at diagnosis and that shifted the problem from the boom to the curl/dump function.

As for your pic, the white, blue and yellow are in the same positions as on my tractor now. I can't see brown in your pic, but by elimination it is in the same position as in your pic.

Allen
 

TheOldHokie

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The collars on the male ends of the quick connects were not removed when they were swapped but I suppose they could have been so you wouldn't know that. Swapping the loader hoses by moving the female quick connects was one of the first things I tried before any other attempts at diagnosis and that shifted the problem from the boom to the curl/dump function.

As for your pic, the white, blue and yellow are in the same positions as on my tractor now. I can't see brown in your pic, but by elimination it is in the same position as in your pic.

Allen
Alright this is how to test the couplers and the valve.

Put tje loader on the ground, shut the engine off, and jiggle the joystick to relieve all pressure as best you can.

Disconnenect the white female coupler

Remove the white nipple from the valve and put some tape over the port to keep dirt out.

Connect the white couplers and put the end of the hose in a clean coffee can.

Start the tractor and very carefully move the joystick to the raise position. DO NOT MOVE IT TO LOWER OR YOU WILL GET A HYDRAULIC OIL BATH..!!!

If the valve and both sets of couplers are working the loader will raise and the coffee can will fill with oil. Stop before it over flows, put everything back on the valve, and dump the oil back into the tractor.

If the loader does not raise remove the hose from the female coupler, put the hose in the can, and repeat the test.

Lets stop here and wait for your results.

Dan
 
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AllenBC

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I understand this defeats the quick connects ability to stop flow when hoses are disconnected. So if fluid comes out of the unseated male disconnect, I assume this means all is working as it should. But with the weird behavior I have seen, I will be ready to see the tape blown off the naked open valve port so I will be very careful with the control stick.

To a degree this has already been tested by swapping hoses and then male disconnects, but this test is more direct. I'm guessing that if this test doesn't show an anomaly, the next thing will be the same test with the hose with the yellow collar.

I will be back - maybe after a shower and change of clothes.

Allen
 

AllenBC

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Did as directed but results not expected: very, very careful joystick movement kept oil spill to a minimum but it came from BOTH the hose and the open valve port. Interpretation?
 

TheOldHokie

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I understand this defeats the quick connects ability to stop flow when hoses are disconnected. So if fluid comes out of the unseated male disconnect, I assume this means all is working as it should. But with the weird behavior I have seen, I will be ready to see the tape blown off the naked open valve port so I will be very careful with the control stick.

To a degree this has already been tested by swapping hoses and then male disconnects, but this test is more direct. I'm guessing that if this test doesn't show an anomaly, the next thing will be the same test with the hose with the yellow collar.

I will be back - maybe after a shower and change of clothes.

Allen
Yes - direct observation not deduction.

By all means go slow and be careful with that port open. Idle speed would be wise. If it was here I would put a plug in the port not tape.

Dan
 

TheOldHokie

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Did as directed but results not expected: very, very careful joystick movement kept oil spill to a minimum but it came from BOTH the hose and the open valve port. Interpretation?
Open port is connected to power beyond which should be open to tank so may be enough back pressure to pump oil that direction. A plug would be nice.

Oil came out the couplers or out of the hose?

Dan
 

AllenBC

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I did the test, at idle for sure. I covered the naked port with a cap too large to screw on but covered the naked system. Results were unexpected: fluid rushed from both the hose and the naked port. I was very careful pulling the joystick so only my hands and arms were oiled.
 

AllenBC

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Open port is connected to power beyond which should be open to tank so may be enough back pressure to pump oil that direction. A plug would be nice.

Oil came out the couplers or out of the hose?

Dan
Out of the hose through the couplers
 

TheOldHokie

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I did the test, at idle for sure. I covered the naked port with a cap too large to screw on but covered the naked system. Results were unexpected: fluid rushed from both the hose and the naked port. I was very careful pulling the joystick so only my hands and arms were oiled.
Put the male coupler back on the port to block it. Remove the femaĺe from the hose and try again

Dan