L 1200 Front End Loader Hydraulic Pump Case Cracked

[mllkn6]

1977 Kubota L 245DT, Front End Loader L 1200
Hi Guys,
It seems like I fix one thing and something else goes out, after getting the clips in the transmission on and grinding the dog ears off the gears as needed, getting a new front tire, changing all the fluids and filters and putting a new bottom in the bucket, I put the old girl to work, when a hose on the front end loader blew out, after changing the two hoses on that cylinder another one went out, course they are all 43 years old so I replaced all the hoses to be safe.
Now the hydraulic pump case has developed a crack in it, not sure if it's just metal fatigue or I did it when tightening up on a fitting as it's where the hose connects that goes back to the controls. It's not a big wide crack but it's long, inside and outside as well. I'll include pictures as I got it off the tractor and took it apart after a good clean up, I hi-lighted the cracks with a black marker so they showed up better.
Take a look at the pictures and your thoughts on if it could be welded up or not, the crack on the inside bother me the most as the gears that spin around on the inside are tight against the sides of the case and it would be hard to grind the welds there for a good fit. I thought if it was clamped in a vise to close the crack up then welded on the outside maybe it would hold. The crack also goes into to where the fitting screws on as well.
I been looking on line for a replacement pump but not sure if they will work or not. This is a Webster pump and I figure it's not made now, plus the ones I seen on line are similar but have different connections as my fittings screwed directly into the pump and the new ones bolt to it.
Then there is the shaft that connects to the motor that turns the pump, still trying to get the set screws to come loose as they are not wanting to turn at all, any ideas as to what I can soak them in to loosen them up or how to get them out, I appreciate advice on that as well.
Guys, any advice is greatly appreciated on my part since I know some of you might have run into these problems before, right now I'm dead in the water.
Does any one know or have any specs on this pump, like gallons per minute it pumps?


Thanks

 

[Workerbee]

The only fix on that pump is replacement. Trying to weld across the threads then retapping would be a nightmare.

 

[mllkn6]

The only fix on that pump is replacement. Trying to weld across the threads then retapping would be a nightmare.

Thanks Workerbee, I sort of figured that also plus it would be almost impossible to grind the inside welds where the gears go too. I was hoping someone had a fix I hadn't thought about, anyway I have ordered a new pump from Northern Tool which is suppose to be here in a day or two, hopefully. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my post, thank you.
While waiting on the pump I am building a brush guard to go around the pump out of 1/2" bar I have, nothing fancy just 2 rows of bar in front of it with 4 up rights welded to them, with two bolted back to the frame where the pump bolts on at so I can remove it if needed, plus reworking the fittings at the pump to allow me to raise the hoses so they don't hang under the tractor like they did before.
Again thank you for the reply.
Can anyone tell me what type of hydraulic fluid and weight to go back with? I drained the tank and cleaned it out when I changed hoses plus put on a new filter, I used the last of the Kubota fluid I had to refill it. The closest Kubota dealer, since the one here closed down a few years ago, is almost 60 miles away and Kubota fluid has gotten so expensive now too.
Thanks

 

[D2Cat]

Might send a PM to "007kubotaguy" on this forum. He may be able to come to your rescue.

 

[Workerbee]

I certainly hope you can find a pump that fits up ok at Northern Hydraulics. I wouldn’t have even looked there. Usually OEM pumps are different from commonly available stuff. Either in the way they mount or in specifications. D2 gave you a good tip there on locating a pump should your first option not pan out.
And any sort of oil recomendations will draw a lot of different opinions. All Id say is that Id go with UDT even if it was a couple hours of road time to get it. I would time the trip for when I could get other items I needed at other stores also. Theres not a lot of reason to take chances of wearing things out faster or having an internal failure due to an inferior fluid. I realize some are fine and some arent. Its about impossible to discern one from the other so why not just go with a known performer, the UDT?
Best of luck on your repairs!

 

[mllkn6]

Might send a PM to "007kubotaguy" on this forum. He may be able to come to your rescue.

Thanks D2Cat, Lance is very knowledgeable and a great person, talked with him several times in the past about issues. He was a life saver when the clips came out of my transmission in helping me put new ones in.
The new pump is suppose to be here today, they say, but we all know how that goes too. I'll let everyone know how well it performs.

 

[mllkn6]

I certainly hope you can find a pump that fits up ok at Northern Hydraulics. I wouldn’t have even looked there. Usually OEM pumps are different from commonly available stuff. Either in the way they mount or in specifications. D2 gave you a good tip there on locating a pump should your first option not pan out.
And any sort of oil recomendations will draw a lot of different opinions. All Id say is that Id go with UDT even if it was a couple hours of road time to get it. I would time the trip for when I could get other items I needed at other stores also. Theres not a lot of reason to take chances of wearing things out faster or having an internal failure due to an inferior fluid. I realize some are fine and some arent. Its about impossible to discern one from the other so why not just go with a known performer, the UDT?
Best of luck on your repairs!

Thanks Workerbee, The new pump is suppose to be in today, they say, not holding my breath either, got that T shirt already. I'm hoping the new pump works, didn't have much to go on as far as specs either, the L 1200 Front End Loader Manual doesn't even show the pump or hoses to it, nor could I find anything on the pump on line. I had to compare the bolt pattern, shaft size and location so they matched, plus the cubic inch displacement and it being gear driven like the old one. I talked with several people that sold pumps about the GPM pumping rate and PSI for their best guess as to what the old pump might have been rated, all of them came up with about the same ratings. My biggest problem was the shaft length out the back side, my old pump had a 2" shaft length and the new ones are only 1", but I got lucky there too. The shaft that connects the pump to the motor was long enough that I could loosen the fittings on each end and slip them out 3/16" each so I got 3/4" penetration on the new pump shaft like the old one and still have 7/8" on both ends. I looked at probably over 100 pumps and chatted with at least 10 different people that sold pumps before buying this one, one of the people I talked with suggested Northern Tool to me is how I come to look at their pumps, I would have never thought about them if he had not mentioned it. If it not strong enough they said I could return it.
As far as hydraulic fluid, I'll probably go with the Kubota, I just wanted to know if anyone had found something else now that worked as well or better. Discussing oil brands is almost as bad as discussing politics too. LOL
I've used the down time well, made the brush guard to go in front of the pump, will put it on after I make sure the pump works, crawled under the tractor and tightened up some bolts, I was surprised at how many I could make a half a turn with a ratchet on too and made some adjustments to little things I been saying I was going to do for years but never got around to them, well now they are done. LOL
Thanks.

 

[mllkn6]

Hi Guys,
The new pump finally got here last Friday, didn't get to put it in till Tuesday, got it all bolted in and had my wife come down to bump the starter so I could make sure the shaft was aligned, no wobble or whatever. I had cut off the fuel and drained the lines so I knew it wouldn't start to be safe, I could see the lugs on the shaft from the side where it connected to the motor, but had to get in front of it to check the shaft alignment.
She hit the starter when told and it was like the battery was almost dead, barely turned the motor over, so I put the battery charger on it for about 4 hours so I knew it was good and charged. Again she hit the starter, made a few turns and slowed down to almost nothing. I thought the pump may be air locked so I removed the hose going out to let the air out, same thing again.
I checked everything to make sure it was bolted up right, all spot on except for the little hydraulic fluid leak coming from the place where the pump joins together, so I removed the pump and hit the starter, fired right up like it is suppose to. I had noticed the pump was hard to turn when I was trying to align the lugs on the shaft with those on the motor, so hard I needed plyers to move it even a 1/8". Good thing it didn't crank as it would have sprayed hydraulic fluid every where out the bottom where the drip was coming from once it was under pressure.
Wednesday took the pump back to Northern Tool and got a refund, well except for tax and shipping, seems they don't refund that I was told, cost me $24 to learn that lesson, plus it will take 10 working days for the money to be back in my account.
Went on line to hunt another pump, call Grainger who didn't have one that turned Counter Clock Wise, but gave me the number to Bailey International. He gave me the name of a lady who is suppose to know about hydraulic pumps, super nice lady too. She had me go the their website and we looked at maybe 20 different pumps before deciding on one. Since Grainger referred me to them she gave me their discount as they buy from them, which saved me $70. The pump should be here sometime Tuesday.
I'm still wondering what could cause the motor to bog down with that pump on and crank easy with it off. The pump wasn't that hard to turn with plyers to do that and the shaft didn't look out of line, no wobble at all and had a 1/16" gap between the two pieces.
I did talk with 007Kubotaguy also, he said he thought those pumps worked on 6 GPM and 2500 PSI, which gave me something to go on. I can't say enough about how nice and knowledgeable he is, he has come to my rescue several time in the past and never hesitated to help any way he could. He even told me how I could run the loader off the little box under the seat that runs the backhoe also if the pump doesn't work out. You don't lose any power but it's only 60% of the original speed, but it's an option.
So I'll keep everyone informed as soon as the new pump comes in.
Take care and stay safe.

 

[mllkn6]

Hi Gang,
I know everyone has been siting on the edge of their seats waiting on the new pump, well, as the old saying goes, "If it wasn't for bad luck I'd have none."
Got the new pump today, put it on and low an behold, the tractor still wouldn't crank with it installed. Cranked the tractor this morning and it ran great without the pump, put the battery charger on it just to be safe, so it would be charged up for the new pump.
The tractor turns over but not fast enough to start it, like the battery is low, or it's bound up or something.
I called Bailey International, talked with Bill as the lady I had spoken to was on vacation. While on the phone with him I tried to crank it so he could hear it, he said take the pressure hose off and see if it is pumping fluid to the controls and it was, pumped about 2 quarts in a bucket. Removed a bolt that allowed the fluid to go into the reservoir and it came out there too when I tried to crank it. So the pump is pumping we know to the controls and back to the reservoir.
Checked the alignment on the shaft from the pump to the motor to the pump and it is as perfect as you can get it, no bind or wobble at all.
He said it sounded like the bypass valve was hung up or gone bad, now not knowing nothing about hydraulics, I'm at a loss for what to do next or if he is right or not. I need your help in the worst way, any suggestions?
The old pump gears are 1/2' wide X 1-15/16" in diameter and the center to center of the gears is 1-9/16", if anyone knows how to figure the GPM from this and if you need more, please do and let me know.
I have nothing on the controls at all to show me how it all goes together, so I'm unsure as to what to try next, so any help would be appreciated. Someone out there has got to know what is causing this to happen.
Thanks

 

[mllkn6]

Well I changed over to the 3 point hitch pump today and it works, but it's slow, bucket rolls fine but lift takes 20 seconds to go from ground to top position and that is at full speed 3300 RPMs, lower RPMs takes longer, it drops in only 6 seconds though. But it's working and I'll just have to use it that way till I figure out what is going on with the front pump.
One rainy day I'll remove the controls and take them apart to see what is going on with the relief valve.
I removed the old reservoir also, going to clean it out real good so when I put it back on I know it's good and clean, nothing to clog anything up, plus a fresh coat of paint.
If anyone finds out anything that may help me, please let me know. Thanks, Guys.

 

[mikester]

Sounds like you are enjoying your new expensive and time consuming hobby. What you need is several parts machines.

I don’t enjoy owning a scrap yard, constantly hunting for spare parts, and fixing endless problems. I’d cut my losses, sell it “as is” or for scrap, and get a new or newer machine. Sometimes buying new is the cheapest option.

 

[mllkn6]

Sounds like you are enjoying your new expensive and time consuming hobby. What you need is several parts machines.

I don’t enjoy owning a scrap yard, constantly hunting for spare parts, and fixing endless problems. I’d cut my losses, sell it “as is” or for scrap, and get a new or newer machine. Sometimes buying new is the cheapest option.

mikester,
Nothing new about farming to me, been doing this since I was old enough to walk on this farm, 6th generation to live here and work this place. Don't need more junk in my way to move around so much for the parts machines. Keeping equipment and accessories running, fixing endless problems like pasture fence is down and the cows are in the road usually at 2 AM on a cold and rainy night too, barn roof leaks, hay bailer snapped a chain just as you started to bail the hay, and more are the daily life of a farmer.
At 70 years old I don't need the payments of a $30 or $40,000 new machine, I can do a lot of work on this baby for a lot less. If I was 30 or 40 years younger maybe, when I bought this tractor in 1977 I was using my grandfathers old 1950 John Deere "B", well today I still use it for certain things, I got the original harrows, cultivators, grain drill, fertilizer spreader and a newer bushog that are used on a regular basics, she still purrs like new. Repainted it and put new decals on it about 10 years ago, looks like new too.
The secret to the longevity of equipment is keeping them up, doing the maintenance when required, fixing what is broken and knowing your equipment, what it can and can't do.
I sure hope my wife doesn't start to think like you, she would trade me in for a newer model in a heart beat. LOL Have a great day and take care.

 

[Dave_eng]

Well I changed over to the 3 point hitch pump today and it works, but it's slow, bucket rolls fine but lift takes 20 seconds to go from ground to top position and that is at full speed 3300 RPMs, lower RPMs takes longer, it drops in only 6 seconds though. But it's working and I'll just have to use it that way till I figure out what is going on with the front pump.
One rainy day I'll remove the controls and take them apart to see what is going on with the relief valve.
I removed the old reservoir also, going to clean it out real good so when I put it back on I know it's good and clean, nothing to clog anything up, plus a fresh coat of paint.
If anyone finds out anything that may help me, please let me know. Thanks, Guys.

My suggestions go along these lines.

By removing the pump output hose you verified that the new pump is working.

Your hydraulic system is an Open Center one which means that oil is flowing continuously from the pump, through the loader valve and back to the reservoir all at low pressure but with full volume flow. Pressure only builds up when you move a loader control lever to direct the flow into a cylinder.

This re-circulation can be blocked anywhere along the loop. A fitting into the reservoir blocked with crud. A hose collapsed internally.

I assume the pressure hose you opened up was at the pump. I suggest you move your focus to the loader valve and the separate reservoir.

Remove the tank hose, the hose which goes from the loader valve back to the reservoir. You should see full flow coming out of that hose when you crank the engine.

You need to verify that the pump can easily return hydraulic fluid to and into the tank.

Your old pump could have been cracked by having a blockage in the re-circulation path I described above.

Dave

 

[Greg8352]

Try the warehouse in Columbus Ohio. Got the correct pump from them. They know the product. Any trans draulic fluid will work for your system. Find a large old Kubota dealership who is willing to ship to you. No need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[mllkn6]

My suggestions go along these lines.

By removing the pump output hose you verified that the new pump is working.

Your hydraulic system is an Open Center one which means that oil is flowing continuously from the pump, through the loader valve and back to the reservoir all at low pressure but with full volume flow. Pressure only builds up when you move a loader control lever to direct the flow into a cylinder.

This re-circulation can be blocked anywhere along the loop. A fitting into the reservoir blocked with crud. A hose collapsed internally.

I assume the pressure hose you opened up was at the pump. I suggest you move your focus to the loader valve and the separate reservoir.

Remove the tank hose, the hose which goes from the loader valve back to the reservoir. You should see full flow coming out of that hose when you crank the engine.

You need to verify that the pump can easily return hydraulic fluid to and into the tank.

Your old pump could have been cracked by having a blockage in the re-circulation path I described above.

Dave

Thanks Dave,
I have removed the reservoir from the tractor and plan to clean it our good tomorrow, the hose that goes from the reservoir to the pump is brand new, less than a month old, it's 3/4" ID and 1-1/4" OD has a wire mesh inside and a spiral wire to keep it from collapsing, it better be good it cost $13 a foot. I bought enough of it to replace the hose to the pump from the reservoir and from the filter to the reservoir as well.
All the hydraulic hose on the loader are new, bought at the same time I got the other hose. I took one of the cylinder hose, the pressure hose and the filler hose from the reservoir for them to match the hose quality and fittings, which they did. I measure each hose and check it against the L 1200 series loader manual so they matched the originals in length. The manual has nothing on the pump or controls.
I also changed hydraulic fluid and filter at the same time, also a new fuel filter, oil change and filter, transmission fluid and filter, not to mention a good grease job while I was at it. Since it was down waiting on the hoses to be made I figure it was a good time to do it all.
I got the loader connected to the 3 point hitch pump right now, everything seems to be working good, the pump for the 3 point hitch pimps only 3.6 GPM compared to the old front pump which did 6.23 GPM so it is somewhat slower moving, but it works. I got a few things to finish up on tomorrow morning then I plan to remove the loader controls and have a look at them, but before that I will disconnect the hose from the filter to the reservoir and let it pump fluid into a bucket to be sure it's working good, right now as connected it dumps back into the transmission, like you suggested and will tell me if there is a blockage there, I can pour the fluid back into the transmission when finished.
Once I check the loader controls I'll reinstall the new pump and try it again, though I do have my concerns about the new pump. My old pump had 2 gears, 2" across with 10 teeth each and were only 1/2" wide, the new pump has 2 cylinders that are about 1.5" to 2" wide and 1-1/4" long, alot more gear to turn than the old one. The new pump I can turn by hand but it is hard and tight, the old one was worn but it spun freely. The new pump is the same size in height and width but it's twice as deep as the old one which was 2.5" deep compared to 4.5" deep on the new one. the old one was .72 CID and the new one is .85 CID, wondering if it's to much pump.
Once I install the new pump I'll check the line from the filter to the tank again. Another thing that bothers me is when I checked the pressure line to see if it was pumping, it pumped out cavitated fluid (yellow and full of bubbles) for a few seconds before it started pumping regular fluid. Again wonder out loud.
I've never taken apart a loader controls before, not sure what I'll run into or what to expect, I'm not even sure what the insides look like, can't find anything on the controls. I have looked at diagrams on different controls to get an idea of what may be inside it. Guess I'll take pictures and lay things out in order of how they come out. I'll let everyone know how I come out.
Thank again, Dave, I appreciate your help and expertise's.

 

[mllkn6]

Try the warehouse in Columbus Ohio. Got the correct pump from them. They know the product. Any trans draulic fluid will work for your system. Find a large old Kubota dealership who is willing to ship to you. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Thanks Greg8352 for the information, but I've talked with 2 Kubota dealers and the pump they say fits my tractor is completely different than the old one. The bolt pattern is different and the inlet and outlet are different also. It does fit a L 245DT alright, just not on one that is as old as mine is, 1977 model. My tractor was made in Japan and shipped to the US, number 922 to come off the ship. I will check them out though, who knows they may have one that will work. Thanks again, I appreciate any help I can get.

 

[mllkn6]

Dave_eng,
I cleaned out the reservoir today, nothing but fluid in it and tested the hose coming off the filter, flowed great, no blockage there. I also removed the loader controls, took it apart and cleaned it up in my parts washer. I took pictures of everything laid out in order, I'll try to explain them.
1. this is everything laid out.


2. This is one of the rods and what I think is the relief valve on the left.


3. This is he top of the control rods, notice the little balls and springs.


4. This is looking down the holes where the hoses to the cylinders attach. On the far left at the bottom there is a square piece it came out of the on the bottom left going to a cylinder. It shows it in the picture beside it before being removed.


5. Here are some pictures looking down the holes from the front and back of the controls.


6. This is a close up of the rods and the Relief Valve, I can push in the end of the relief valve using the cap or a pin pretty easy, it's not stuck open or shut.


Will have to send the other in another post as 10 is the limit.

 

[mllkn6]

7. This is a close up of the end of the Relief Valve.


8. This is just 2 pictures after I put it back together, everything is just hand tight, just to show you what it looked like put together. Front and back view.


When I took it apart there was nothing in it to block it in any way, I took it apart before I cleaned it up and was careful to make sure nothing was lost or fell out. I seen that little square thing when I removed the fittings for the cylinder hoses and took it out then. If it goes some place else I can't imagine how it got where it was, opening is to small for it to come from the inside as it has a small round hole unlike the others. I have no idea what it is or what it does.
The Relief Valve looked pretty good, wasn't stuck, moved in and out with a little force using the cap off a pin to push it in and it comes back out when released.
Look over the pictures and see if you see anything that could be causing the problem.
My plans for tomorrow is to remove all the hydraulic lines, drain them and blow them out with an air hose, even the metal ones, just to be sure there is no blockage there. Once they are blown out I will reinstall them. Unless someone finds something I'll reinstall the controls and pump and try again I guess.
I appreciate everyone taking your time to help me. Boy, I need it. Thanks.

 

[mllkn6]

I put the controls back together this morning, removed all the hydraulic lines even the metal ones and blew them out, put them back on after installing the controls and put the reservoir back on, replumbed it to the filter, run the filler and pressure line to the front where the pump will go, reinstalled the quick couplings for the 3 point hitch and mounted the pump to the bracket that bolts to the frame. It has to be bolted on the bracket before mounting it to the frame since there is no way to tighten the bolts to the pump with out putting it on the bracket first.
I pulled the tractor in my shop as they calling for rain for the next 3 days, had to drag the bucket inside with it down, but it not a problem as I got a 2' x 2' steel ramp in the center for riding my motorcycle on to the concrete floor and the bucket road up on it.
Tomorrow I'll reinstall the pump, then test the filler and pressure line in a bucket of fluid to be sure it pumping, if so then connect them to the controls, refill the reservoir and see how it goes.
Anyone got any last minute suggestions? Hope it works this time.

 

[torch]

the pump for the 3 point hitch pimps only 3.6 GPM compared to the old front pump which did 6.23 GPM so it is somewhat slower moving, but it works.

The flow volume of a hydraulic pump is dependent on two factors: the physical size of the pump and the speed of rotation. So while it sounds like your new pump is physically bigger, the 540 rpm rotational speed of the PTO may be well below the speed of the original front-mounted pump. Hence the lower output and the slower cycle times.

You can actually measure the GPM output by calculating the volume of liquid required to raise and to lower the arms (they will be different volumes due to the rod diameter) and then time the cycles. Average over 4 or 5 cycles. If it works out to 3.6gpm then you are getting the rated flow out of that pump and can't hope for any improvement. However, if the flow rate is well below the rated capacity, then something must be restricting the flow. For the sake of comparison, my two, 2" diameter x 16" long lift cylinders fully cycled 4 times in 63 seconds when fed with a 3.5gpm pump at full throttle. If yours takes 20 seconds just to fully raise once, then either your cylinders are massive, or there is something wrong in the system.

I called Bailey International, talked with Bill as the lady I had spoken to was on vacation. While on the phone with him I tried to crank it so he could hear it, he said take the pressure hose off and see if it is pumping fluid to the controls and it was, pumped about 2 quarts in a bucket. Removed a bolt that allowed the fluid to go into the reservoir and it came out there too when I tried to crank it. So the pump is pumping we know to the controls and back to the reservoir. [/quote}

If I understand correctly, the front-mount replacement that you initially tried prevents the starter from cranking fast enough to start the engine when all hoses are connected, but does allow the tractor to start when the discharge hose is disconnected and dumped direct back into the reservoir? If so, THAT sounds like something is severely restricting the output.

I assume that the front mounted pump is direct-drive off the engine with little or no gear reduction and no clutch. If there is a restriction in the high-pressure part of the system somewhere, that will have a much greater effect on cranking than the same restriction fed by a PTO pump. To put it another way, if your tests of the PTO pump gpm reveal it is not delivering full rated flow, and you can track down & repair a restriction, then you can probably give the front-mounted pump another try and get better performance.