G5200 How do I bleed injector lines?

[DougMatthews]

I've got a 1987 G5200 diesel lawn tractor. Got run out of fuel. Won't start (no smoke from exhaust, just turns over until battery is done).

I've bled the fuel lines up to the injector pump. When I turn the key with the bleed screw out on the injector pump fuel squirts out.

Trying to figure out, is there some trick to bleeding the injector lines (other than loosening them and turning over the engine)?

Several online "how to" say to use decompression lever and turn engine over for 10-15 seconds. I cannot seem to find a decompression lever on this engine and the (brand new) battery will only turn over the (brand new) starter for few seconds.

Any tips and/or tricks?

Doug

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Trying to figure out, is there some trick to bleeding the injector lines (other than loosening them and turning over the engine)?

Several online "how to" say to use decompression lever and turn engine over for 10-15 seconds. I cannot seem to find a decompression lever on this engine and the (brand new) battery will only turn over the (brand new) starter for few seconds.

Any tips and/or tricks?

You don't have a decompression knob.
Put a set of jumper cables from a larger battery like your car on it.

No there is no other "trick" to bled the injection lines, you must crack each of the fittings at the top of each injector, set the throttle to high, crack it till good bubble free fuel come out of the fittings then tighten, repeat if it doesn't start!

 

[Grumpy560]

Also check and make sure the electric fuel pump is working. If standing behind the mower the pump is located near the right side of the fuel tank. The pump helps aid the injection pump. Whatever the case do NOT use ether on this engine.

As Wolfman stated hook up to a jumper vehicle. Even though these are little engines they require a lot of cranking amps, I've got a 750cca in my G6200 and a 850cca in my B7100. I've run my G6200 out of fuel more times than I can remember over the past 13 years I've owned it and never had the problem you are having.

 

[DougMatthews]

Thanks for the info Wolfman and Grumpy!

Still stuck.

Replaced the battery cables, made a big difference in how long the starter will crank. Here's where I'm at:

- Electric fuel pump works and pumps fuel (no bubbles) as far as the bleed valve on the side of the injector pump.
- New battery, cables and starter.
- Bled injectors (one at a time) until fuel came out of the fitting.
- Fuel is fresh (filled the cans a few weeks ago).
- Glow plug bodies (did not pull them) feel pretty warm to the touch.
- Turns over with occasional puff of smoke out exhaust.
- Won't fire up.

What am I missing?

Thanks!
Doug

 

[Fedup]

Based on your last post I wonder which end of the injector lines you tried to bleed? It needs to be done at the injector, not out of the pump. The object here is to allow the pump to fill the lines or the engine will never start. Once you see pulses of fuel at the injector, then tighten the lines. It requires a bit more cranking at that point to actually develop sufficient pressure in the lines to pop the injectors. When this happens you will begin to see some smoke out the stack. Give the battery and starter a rest for a minute, then use the glow plugs as usual and it should start.

 

[DougMatthews]

I am bleeding at the injector end of the line (fair question at this point, LOL). Given Fedup's description, I may not be bleeding long enough (once fuel shows up I stopped - maybe I need to go longer).

A few more questions:

1) When jumping from my truck battery, should I have the truck running or would that be bad for the tractor?

2) Can I bleed all 3 lines at once (I have been doing one at a time)?

3) How many "pulses of fuel" should I see at an injector to consider it bled?

4) Do I still need tractor engine cranking as I tighten a line, or turn off the key and get to the tightening quickly?

 

[Rolling Stock]

I am bleeding at the injector end of the line (fair question at this point, LOL). Given Fedup's description, I may not be bleeding long enough (once fuel shows up I stopped - maybe I need to go longer).

A few more questions:

1) When jumping from my truck battery, should I have the truck running or would that be bad for the tractor?

2) Can I bleed all 3 lines at once (I have been doing one at a time)?

3) How many "pulses of fuel" should I see at an injector to consider it bled?

4) Do I still need tractor engine cranking as I tighten a line, or turn off the key and get to the tightening quickly?

1) Yes your truck should be running, that will give you more volt/amps to work with and wont drain your truck battery.

2) Yes you can bleed all 3 lines at once, that way your are not having an air pocket sitting at the head of your injection pump.

3) The amount of pulses isn't really a good measurement. When the fuel gets there you will know it.

4) No you don't need your tractor cranking as you tighten the lines. The fuel should not bleed back through the injector jump.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Probably as others said, bled them longer. IT only takes one tiny bubble to stop you dead.

 

[D2Cat]

Be sure your throttle is set to full fuel.

 

[DougMatthews]

Fuel lever is wide open.

Will someone please attempt to describe "When the fuel gets there you will know it"? A pulsing ooze of fuel, fuel spraying everywhere, or what?

Even with a jump from my (running) truck, new tractor battery, new cables all around, new starter, this thing is NOT turning over very fast or cranking for very long.

With this state, will it develop enough pressure to "pop the injectors"?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

You say you changed the battery the cables and the starter?
Why did you feel you needed to do that?
Was it turning slow?
How slow is it cranking?
How long can you crank it before it goes dead again?
When you changed the starter did you use a new Kubota starter , rebuilt, or new / rebuild non OEM?
I'm worried you may have more going on.
Are you 100% sure you filled it with diesel?
It only takes about 10 turns of the motor at full throttle to clear out the lines, if you can open them while cranking and then close them while cranking note any change in the sound of the engine.

 

[D2Cat]

You said, "...this thing is NOT turning over very fast or cranking for very long."

Like North Idaho Wolfman suggested, the starter may be the problem. You can have everything set fine, but if the engine doesn't turn over fast enough it won't start.

How do you know when you've primed it enough, you ask.

When the lines on top of the injectors are cracked open and fuel is coming out of them without any air bubbles, is the best indicator. But for good measure, let the starter cool down for a minute and bleed them one more time. Then tighten the fittings.

 

[DougMatthews]

You say you changed the battery the cables and the starter?
Why did you feel you needed to do that?
Was it turning slow?
How slow is it cranking?
How long can you crank it before it goes dead again?
When you changed the starter did you use a new Kubota starter , rebuilt, or new / rebuild non OEM?
I'm worried you may have more going on.
Are you 100% sure you filled it with diesel?
It only takes about 10 turns of the motor at full throttle to clear out the lines, if you can open them while cranking and then close them while cranking note any change in the sound of the engine.

Wife ran it out of fuel. Filled it up and ran it - she said it didn't have much power, then she saw sparks coming out of engine cowling and shut it down, then couldn't get it started again.

When I later attempted to start it, the solenoid would click but starter would not turn. I had trouble getting the starter out - starter teeth were jammed on ring gear. Ring gear was fine, but outer edge of starter teeth chewed up (probably the sparks my wife saw was the starter teeth grinding on the ring gear).

Put the starter on the bench and tested it. Solenoid clicks, teeth kick out, but will not turn at all.

Installed new non-oem starter ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00Q8LT2NQ ).

Cranking really slow. Battery was 8 years old and over the (Seattle) winter would not turn the tractor over. So I bit the bullet and bought a new Napa 370 CCA battery (old Yuasa was 260 CCA).

Still cranking slower than I thought it should, only remaining component was battery cables, so I replaced them.

100% sure its diesel (filled 2 cans a month or so ago at the same time from the same pump, first can has been running fine, just switched cans). My cans are very clearly marked as to their contents.

My attempts at bleeding have yielded a small flow of bubble-free fuel from between the nut and the tube feeding the injector.

On a fresh charge (tractor battery only - not jumping) it will crank slowly for 4-5 seconds. When I jump it to truck it does not seem to help much. Starter gets very warm. Here is a youtube video of attempting to start:

https://youtu.be/5720TV-MGh4

Thanks for your help!

 

[CountryBumkin]

Did you change the positive and negative cables? Where the cables complete with both ends or did you need to cut/crimp cable ends?

So you have a new battery and a new starter, and new cable(s).
It is definitely cranking slowly. You need to fix that before worrying about a fuel issue (which you may not even have).

If you don't have a digital VOM test meter, you should get one (a cheap one can be had for $20). There are a couple of tests you can do to help narrow the slow cranking cause.

1) Measure battery voltage (at battery post and at starter). Are they the same? You should have at least 12.4 volts.

2) A Voltage Drop test. This will tell you if there is too much resistance in the circuit (i.e. loose connection, corrosion, etc.). See this link http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm there are plenty of other "how to do a voltage drop test" sites.

This is the easiest way to start figuring out why it is cranking so slow. Also, don't assume a new part is always good.
Good luck.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Yep no where near fast enough.
Either something is dragging the motor down, or more likely you have gotten a bad starter.

I would start by pulling the starter finding a local starter/electric motor/ generator repair shop and get the starter tested.

If the starter checks out good then there is something internal or external that is dragging the motors ability to spin, could be HST, bad dynamo, bad idler pulley, bad bearing on PTO assembly, or we get into issues with the inside of the engine, that becomes a whole other conversation.

After having the starter checked out, I would pull the injectors and see if it will spin up to speed.

Let us know what you find.

 

[DougMatthews]

Bumkin - Changed both positive and negative cables. No cutting/crimping. All connections are definitely corrosion free. I can test VD when I get home.

Wolfman - I wont be able to get starter tested anytime soon (schedule is too tight). I can try pulling injectors and seeing how it spins.

Pulling the drive belt off would allow me to rule out dynamo and idler pulley.

How would one rule out HST or PTO assembly bearing as cause of external drag? Help identifying where to look for these components would be welcome.

My wife DID mention when she drove it (after the fuel event, just before dying) it did not seem to have nearly as much power as normal, difficulty driving up gentle hill, etc. That may point to something dragging on the engine's ability to spin.

 

[CountryBumkin]

Bumkin - Changed both positive and negative cables. No cutting/crimping. All connections are definitely corrosion free. I can test VD when I get home.

Wolfman - I wont be able to get starter tested anytime soon (schedule is too tight). I can try pulling injectors and seeing how it spins.

Pulling the drive belt off would allow me to rule out dynamo and idler pulley.

How would one rule out HST or PTO assembly bearing as cause of external drag? Help identifying where to look for these components would be welcome.

My wife DID mention when she drove it (after the fuel event, just before dying) it did not seem to have nearly as much power as normal, difficulty driving up gentle hill, etc. That may point to something dragging on the engine's ability to spin.

That Wolfman is a smart guy. I was going to suggest that you remove the glow plugs and then see if it cranks over faster.
But I thought that might be more difficult for you - than just taking some measurements with your voltmeter.
But if your up to it, the more info/clues you provide the quicker we can help you get her fixed.

 

[cviola2005]

I would like to suggest taking every connection loose related to the cables you changed, clean them with a wire brush, put a little dielectric grease on them and reassemble.

Another thing, clean (and grease) the opening and flat face of the starter hole. I have seen bad connections between starter and block on several different vehicles and machines.

Also, take the new battery in for a test. I've received new defective batteries. Happened twice before I learn to make sure it's tested before I walk out the store.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Bumkin - Changed both positive and negative cables. No cutting/crimping. All connections are definitely corrosion free. I can test VD when I get home.

Wolfman - I wont be able to get starter tested anytime soon (schedule is too tight). I can try pulling injectors and seeing how it spins.

Pulling the drive belt off would allow me to rule out dynamo and idler pulley.

How would one rule out HST or PTO assembly bearing as cause of external drag? Help identifying where to look for these components would be welcome.

My wife DID mention when she drove it (after the fuel event, just before dying) it did not seem to have nearly as much power as normal, difficulty driving up gentle hill, etc. That may point to something dragging on the engine's ability to spin.

I'll post a picture of how you would disconnect the HST in a bit, on the road now.
The drag / loss of power could have been from the starter sticking on.

 

[DougMatthews]

The drag / loss of power could have been from the starter sticking on.

That had crossed my mind. Led to my thinking that the starter sticking on could explain both the loss of power as well as the old starter becoming damaged.

Anything to watch out for removing the injectors?