help needed: G2160 intermitent start issue

[Kaiten]

Howdy!

Recently I got a low 380h G2160 in relatively good shape. Went through a fuel pump rebuilt journey. Now the machine is running fine, except intermittent hot start issue, especially after running the machine for more than half an hour in Texas hot weather.

The starter solenoid clicks when I turn the key, but the starter will not spin. When the machine cools down for a while, the tractor will start again, usaually after several failed attempts, in most of the cases. I can start the machine by jump the starter (12v terminal to the solenoid trigger terminal).

Yesterday, after it failed again, I got my voltage meter out and started measuring.

Good battery - I got 12.7 V, both at the battery and at the starter positive terminal.
Seat safety switch works fine - 0 ohm when depressed
When I turn the ignition switch, I only got 7.7 V. What the heck!

I pulled the wiring diagram online. From the battery positive terminal, there is a slow blow 40A fuse, then to the ignition switch, then to the PTO switch, the brake switch, an optional safety switch, then to the solenoid. Where on earth do I get 5V voltage drop!

Again, why sometime I get the 12V, and sometime I get the 7.7V?

Is the PTO switch or the brake switch acting up? If yes, how?

Your help is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Dave_eng]

Howdy!

Recently I got a low 380h G2160 in relatively good shape. Went through a fuel pump rebuilt journey. Now the machine is running fine, except intermittent hot start issue, especially after running the machine for more than half an hour in Texas hot weather.

The starter solenoid clicks when I turn the key, but the starter will not spin. When the machine cools down for a while, the tractor will start again, usaually after several failed attempts, in most of the cases. I can start the machine by jump the starter (12v terminal to the solenoid trigger terminal).

Yesterday, after it failed again, I got my voltage meter out and started measuring.

Good battery - I got 12.7 V, both at the battery and at the starter positive terminal.
Seat safety switch works fine - 0 ohm when depressed
When I turn the ignition switch, I only got 7.7 V. What the heck!

I pulled the wiring diagram online. From the battery positive terminal, there is a slow blow 40A fuse, then to the ignition switch, then to the PTO switch, the brake switch, an optional safety switch, then to the solenoid. Where on earth do I get 5V voltage drop!

Again, why sometime I get the 12V, and sometime I get the 7.7V?

Is the PTO switch or the brake switch acting up? If yes, how?

Your help is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

If you are doing your voltage measurements with no load on the battery circuits, your tests tell you very little

Start with the basics. Remove battery cables and clean ends and battery posts. Remove ground cable engine or frame end and clean surfaces. I know you said the starter usually works when jumped with a screwdriver but you need better than USUALLY.

If you have repair ends on your battery cables, get new cables.

You are seeing the voltage drop because of high resistance connections which show up under high current flow.

Since you have a multi meter, follow the voltage drop tests in this DENSO starter troubleshooting manual.

Once the battery basics have been covered, then measure the voltage at the starter solenoid trigger wire when you turn the key switch to START.

There are relay solutions which can boost the starter solenoid circuit trigger voltage but lets get the other stuff out of the way first.

Dave

 

[lmichael]

Look at my write up of the same issue on the same tractor. A "helper" relay solved all the issues and keeps all the safety gear intact and operational. Big question I have is why was a rebuild on the pump needed at such low hours?!

 

[Kaiten]

Thanks a lot. Will check out the helper relay solution.

For the fuel pump rebuild, it was a long story. Poor maintenance from the previous owner, incorrectly installed fuel filter (backwards), and Sea Foam usage clogged the pump. It was not difficult to rebuild the fuel pump by myself. The most annoying part was to find O-rings and washers for the pump. It was expensive as well (6 O-rings cost $50 shipped).

I always wonder what is causing the voltage drop. The wiring diagram shows very simple connection from the positive to the trigger terminal:

+ -> slow blow 40A -> ignition switch -> PTO SW -> brake SW -> safety SW (option)

voltage drop means high resistance in the loop, right? Does that mean the PTO or brake SW is the issue(s)?

Look at my write up of the same issue on the same tractor. A "helper" relay solved all the issues and keeps all the safety gear intact and operational. Big question I have is why was a rebuild on the pump needed at such low hours?!

 

[lmichael]

Thanks to our gummint trying to protect us from ourselves there are more switches in there than are needed (frankly if it were up to me there would be none). Honestly up until about 5 years ago I had an ooooolllllld Allis Chalmers B10 from the very early 60's. There wasn't a safety switch on it. And I taught both my girls from the time they could tiptoe to the clutch pedal how to operate it safely. No one ever once did anything wrong with it. And it never once "failed".
Every time you introduce another set of contacts into the circuit it's just another place voltage and current can disappear. Trying to track all that foolishness down will give you gray hair.
I simply added in a 30 amp relay (got a whole box of them on Amazon WITH wire harnesses and plugs) for $12 IIRC. I am going to install a new fuse block and add in auxiliary circuits as well and do it with the relays to reduce switching loads.
Even when the solenoid was getting full or very close to full voltage not enough current to fully engage the starter motor. A side benefit is the starter will work far more positively and less likely to cause partial gear engagement.

 

[wgator]

Kaiten. The following link (includes his video) is to a simple 2 wire and push button starter switch he did on his G1800:

Kubota G1800 Wont Start. Start Clicks. (FIXED)

Good evening, I have a Kubota G1800 tractor. This Kubota would intermittently not start. The bendix would hit the flywheel without engaging. First, I bought a brand new Chinese starter. (Smart right?) That didn't work so I tried shimming it. I read online that you can put a starter relay into...

www.tractorbynet.com

 

[lmichael]

I'm sorry that is really sloppy work and totally amateurish. I didn't make a YouTube but if you looked at mine and didn't know, you would never know it wasn't factory OEM. Plus there is no "if it doesn't work" and it does not bypass safety stuff either. You turn the key it works. Every time. No guess work

 

[TheOldHokie]

I'm sorry that is really sloppy work and totally amateurish. I didn't make a YouTube but if you looked at mine and didn't know, you would never know it wasn't factory OEM. Plus there is no "if it doesn't work" and it does not bypass safety stuff either. You turn the key it works. Every time. No guess work
View attachment 61986 View attachment 61987 View attachment 61988

I am glad it worked for you but it did not work on my G2160 - exact same behavior with the relay as without. I eventually gave up trying to make it work and threw the relay in the trash. I now keep a piece of #10 wire under the hood to jumper the solenoid. Works every time and dirt cheap.. "Someday" I will replace the wire with a dash mounted push button switch.....

Dan

 

[Kaiten]

Looks great on you setup, lmichael!

I found an old relay, and rigged the same harness. Will put it on the tractor this weekend.

The relay I found is: Panasonic ca1a-dc12v-n aca1213. I don't have a voltage generator, so I put a 9V battery on it, and it clicked. With 4 AA battery (6.45V), it clicked as well. Since my G2160 generates 7.7V when fails to start, this should fix the problem.

Keep my fingers crossed.

Cheers!

 

[lmichael]

These are what I bought. AmazonSmile: 5 Pack - EPAuto 30/40 AMP Relay Harness Spdt 12V, 5-PIN SPDT Bosch Style: Automotive

 

[lmichael]

I am glad it worked for you but it did not work on my G2160 - exact same behavior with the relay as without. I eventually gave up trying to make it work and threw the relay in the trash. I now keep a piece of #10 wire under the hood to jumper the solenoid. Works every time and dirt cheap.. "Someday" I will replace the wire with a dash mounted push button switch.....

Dan

You either are not even getting the EXTEMEMELY small amount of voltage/current to trip the relay, and it that case I would do some SERIOUS trouble shooting, or you bought the wrong type of relay. The ones I bought can trip with VERY little voltage/current. Try with the ones I bought

 

[Kaiten]

So I got the new setup installed on my G2160 today. Works like a charm! No more issues of starting

Thanks for all the advise!

 

[TigerMike]

On both my dad's and my G1800's, I just installed a nice rubber covered pushbutton on the dash and hooked one of the wires on the hot lead from the battery (at the starter) thru an in-line fuseholder to the button, and a wire from the other side of the button went directly to the starter solenoid terminal. I placed "wire loom" over the wires, zip tied them to existing wire, and...not only does it work, it also looks good, and it removes ALL future issues with the UNNECESSARY lawsuit-mandated BS! I grew up driving tractors without all of that safety garbage and tought my daughter to operate those same tractors without her ever getting hurt. Those safety devices are only there for the IDIOTS that don't take the time to read the manual and learn their machine!