Farm House Crawl Space

[Flienlow]

Hi Guys-

So I'm working on a rental house that we own. We bought it about 1 month before the housing market completely crashed in 2008. . It was purchased as a quick flip to a rehabber, but that didnt happen so we just rented as is to few folks. I always knew when it came available that I would need to fetch my own Whippin' Switch, bite the bullet and fix it up. -That time has come.
Anyway I have some water issues that I need to solve and figured I would post to see if anyone has been down this road before and could offer up ideas, and to see if I am on the right path before I start burning time and diesel.

Here is a quick vid I took.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aoXuYZEq24

 

[Tooljunkie]

Give up on french drain. Cloth covered weeping tile is a better way to go. Unless thats going to be part of your drain. I cut in a couple small french drains, filled with stone. Cant tell they exist after 3 years. In the dungeon, looks like you have a handle on the drain plan. My house the weeper was installed 40 years after house was built, dug outside,right to below floor, weeper put in and backfilled with drainage stone. Drains into sump and pumped 100' away from house.
Also relocated downspouts for rain gutters.

 

[Redlands]

So not seeing it in real life means so much to wonder about.
First thought. Stop the water from getting to the house or under it. French drain down to BELOW the water level. All four sides of the home if needed. Sump pump if really needed could be set up or at least prep for a sump pumb in case. Filter fabric used on both sides of the trench and at bottom and top to incase the trench. Install gravel with no fines in it it all the way to the surface. Maybe a inch of dirt on top if you really think the grass will not grow back. Filter fabric sleeve around the French drain pipe also even though its inside the trench fabric. Adjust yard to drain from the house to the french drain or place french drain real close to the house, if you stop the water from reaching the house then no need for the drains in the basement type area and helps provide stable soil for the blocking work your said will be done to level up the house. And its got to be way easier and faster to dig with the back hoe out in the yard than cut concrete and dig french drain ditch and patch back the basement floor.

2nd thought. The crack filler in the basement walls will work until they shift then its wasted effort. But if no water reaches the house then no problem.

3rd thought. Cabinets can be at same depth by door then angle out to normal depth for sink and what not.

4th thought. Be sure to use some type of moisture barrier under the flooring materials. And vent under the house real well at least in warm weather if plumping freezing is a issue.

5th thought. Gutters and downspout set to drain out of the house footprint. Preferably in their own drain pipes. Or into the french drain system if needed.

 

[D2Cat]

Redlands, pretty much covered what needs to be done.

I'd just emphasize, the gravel in the trench needs to be washed. Around here I'd order "lateral rock", and probably 2". Same material used for sewer lateral lines. Washed so the screenings don't plug the system up.

Flienlow, you need to get his address so you can forward consulting payment!

 

[Flienlow]

Redlands, pretty much covered what needs to be done.

I'd just emphasize, the gravel in the trench needs to be washed. Around here I'd order "lateral rock", and probably 2". Same material used for sewer lateral lines. Washed so the screenings don't plug the system up.

Flienlow, you need to get his address so you can forward consulting payment!

Hey Redlands....You ever been to Seattle? How about you come on up

 

[Flienlow]

So not seeing it in real life means so much to wonder about.
First thought. Stop the water from getting to the house or under it. French drain down to BELOW the water level. All four sides of the home if needed. Sump pump if really needed could be set up or at least prep for a sump pumb in case. Filter fabric used on both sides of the trench and at bottom and top to incase the trench. Install gravel with no fines in it it all the way to the surface. Maybe a inch of dirt on top if you really think the grass will not grow back. Filter fabric sleeve around the French drain pipe also even though its inside the trench fabric. Adjust yard to drain from the house to the french drain or place french drain real close to the house, if you stop the water from reaching the house then no need for the drains in the basement type area and helps provide stable soil for the blocking work your said will be done to level up the house. And its got to be way easier and faster to dig with the back hoe out in the yard than cut concrete and dig french drain ditch and patch back the basement floor.

2nd thought. The crack filler in the basement walls will work until they shift then its wasted effort. But if no water reaches the house then no problem.

3rd thought. Cabinets can be at same depth by door then angle out to normal depth for sink and what not.

4th thought. Be sure to use some type of moisture barrier under the flooring materials. And vent under the house real well at least in warm weather if plumping freezing is a issue.

5th thought. Gutters and downspout set to drain out of the house footprint. Preferably in their own drain pipes. Or into the french drain system if needed.

Your thoughts and my thoughts are pretty much spot on for all the "thoughts" - if that make any sense

I am wondering if there would be any value in filling in that Hand dug well. Real Estate agent said don't do it as there is irrigation value, and could be made in to a "cute farm feature" if one was to replace the hand pump and get it working again. - But the jury is still out on that. all I know is there is 1000+gal of water dang close to this structure. But such is the life of an old house where people have completely half @$$ stuff before you. It really is amazing what folk hack together sometimes when just a little bit of extra work would be made it Serviceable for year and years to come.

 

[Southernfarm]

My house has a full basement. During one year the water table was so high that through a electrical conduit I found that the water level was 2 feet above the basement floor. My house was like a floating boat. I excavated around the entire perimeter of the basement, down to the footing. Waterproofed the basement wall with Blueskin, installed a cloth covered weeping tile, backfilled with river rock, covered river rock with heavy duty landscape fabric, and backfilled with a slope away. Trenched around about 2 feet at the base, and 3 feet wide at the surface. The weeping tile was beside, and not on top of the footing. Lastly, had a drilling company come out and drill a 36" wide hole, 20 feet deep about 10 feet from the perimeter of the house. Inside that, I put a 32" diameter, 20 foot long piece of plastic culvert. Have the end cap on one end bolted and sealed with a lot of silicone before putting down the hole. Then had all the drain tile connect up to and drain into that culvert. I essentially have a 32 inch wide tube that has the capacity of 12 feet of water. I then have a pump that I pump it down with. I have had to only had to pump it out once in the last 8 years. Most years I use it as a rain cistern for the garden.

 

[D2Cat]

If you decide to fill in the well, you need to do it according to how your county wants it done, OR you could be putting yourself in a bad position for a law suit down the road.

It's not a big deal to fill in a water well. They usually have some funds to help with. They just want to be sure it's done according to their specs.

 

[Flienlow]

If you decide to fill in the well, you need to do it according to how your county wants it done, OR you could be putting yourself in a bad position for a law suit down the road.

It's not a big deal to fill in a water well. They usually have some funds to help with. They just want to be sure it's done according to their specs.

I forget the term for it, but its basically a bleached pea gravel is used. I talked to a few well guys around here also, they go through the county motions, and get their blessing (for A FEE) and then just fill them with pea gravel.

 

[Tooljunkie]

I forget the term for it, but its basically a bleached pea gravel is used. I talked to a few well guys around here also, they go through the county motions, and get their blessing (for A FEE) and then just fill them with pea gravel.

I have witnessed a few wells that were sealed off up here. Bentonite. It a stone that expands when it absorbs water. So it seals the well.

 

[Flienlow]

I have witnessed a few wells that were sealed off up here. Bentonite. It a stone that expands when it absorbs water. So it seals the well.

That's a great idea. thanks!!

 

[08quadram]

What we would typically specify on something like this is

1. Gutters and downspouts if you don't have them.

2. Your crawl space should have either 15 mil vapor barrier sealed to the walls at the floor joists. Also, it should be conditioned as the rest of the house.

3. Any reasonable way to make grade slope away is best. In the front, a retaining wall at the front near bushes? Can you create a lower courtyard partway between houses? Again, providing slope away from house.

4. Otherwise we would use perferated field tile with washed rock at the foundations. As close to footing elevation as possible. If you have the slope on property, tie together and route tile away from house. Depending on where water is coming from in the basement, you may will need to cut concrete and run same tile on inside. (I just finished construction on a new library addition at a very wet location. I Specified several lines of tile running parallel to each other under the lower level slab along with each side of the footing at perimeter. They all tie into a 8" tile that we ran 600' down the street to a creek, but that wasnt cheap.)

5. Contact county or DNR for proper well capping.

6. Looks like it is a nice little property.

Mike

 

[Flienlow]

What we would typically specify on something like this is

1. Gutters and downspouts if you don't have them.

2. Your crawl space should have either 15 mil vapor barrier sealed to the walls at the floor joists. Also, it should be conditioned as the rest of the house.

3. Any reasonable way to make grade slope away is best. In the front, a retaining wall at the front near bushes? Can you create a lower courtyard partway between houses? Again, providing slope away from house.

4. Otherwise we would use perferated field tile with washed rock at the foundations. As close to footing elevation as possible. If you have the slope on property, tie together and route tile away from house. Depending on where water is coming from in the basement, you may will need to cut concrete and run same tile on inside. (I just finished construction on a new library addition at a very wet location. I Specified several lines of tile running parallel to each other under the lower level slab along with each side of the footing at perimeter. They all tie into a 8" tile that we ran 600' down the street to a creek, but that wasnt cheap.)

5. Contact county or DNR for proper well capping.

6. Looks like it is a nice little property.

Mike

Here is a quick scribbling that I made over a county drawing. This is plan A (which may very well not be the final revision, or even the correct way.)

The Green lines will be my down spout drains and will go to the ditch in the street. Since the foundation footing is ungodly shallow on the well side of the house, they will also double as footing drain.

The red line I am thinking will be deep drains that will be inplace for a high water table situation

The black line will be a French drain that goes to a small culvert pipe about 200feet away. The property gently slopes that way.

The blue sump will go into the red and out to the drain along property.

 

[08quadram]

I'm not sure how cold it gets there, but around here in Iowa, we wouldn't consider tying footing tile to down spout lines. They will freeze up. I probably wouldn't do it either way.

The footing tiles should be perforated tile, the down spout drains should be solid tile. You don't want to introduce more water under ground at the house. You are trying to remove it.

If the grade slopes away from the house on the "right" or where you show the 2 red lines, Not sure they will do that much good. Granted, if the clay below slopes to the house, they may. but then again a good drain at the house foundation will do a lot. I've even seen places where there was a tile at the outside of the footing and another a couple feet higher. Typically around here we keep the footings a minimum of 48" below grade.
If there is anyway to regrade the dirt to the right as to not need a french drain, you would be better off in my opinion. Just less to maintain and keep cleaned out. But without seeing an actual site topo of the area, can't really know.

Keep in mind, that my experience comes from a cold climate. Here the ground freezes solid. We occasionally get Indian Summers so it isn't uncommon for slight thawing of ground, and snow melt. Last thing we want is tile lines freezing up.

 

[tempforce]

the well won't effect the water level around the house. unless you use it enough to run it dry. it would be a great selling asset for yard watering. i would cover most of it with a concrete lid. leaving a one foot opening to install a pump and associated equipment. build a small well with fake rock. to keep the weight to a minimum on your well cover. make it look like a little wishing well. have your hose connection on the side of the well where it won't show to much. or install a small windmill and use the well as a drip system.
my aunt and uncle did something along the same line. only they installed a couple more wishing wells in other locations in their yard. with a faucet to water that portion of the yard.
all of the other comments to deal with water and the house are good.
the main idea is to keep the water away from the foundation and seal it on the outside to add extra protection.

after watching your video, there is another option. since you are installing some new foundation.
how about lifting the house a few inches with the new foundation. also installing the drain around the house.
having such a high water table is going to be a pain, especially in the winter.

 

[Flienlow]

how about lifting the house a few inches with the new foundation. also installing the drain around the house.
having such a high water table is going to be a pain, especially in the winter.

C'mon Brother! That is a great idea, but I simply don't have the funds or time right now for that.
Completely agree it would be the way to go. But there are Several or big items that need to be addressed that are not mentioned in the vid.
As it is, I am probably throwing good money after bad on this house. Let's face it, It should be track hoe'd, and rebuilt. The goal here is do the best I can, with what I have.
Basically that means safe to live in, Comfortable, and Worry free for the Landlord in General. Not to mention this drainage issue is going off on a tangent from where I started as the Problem seems to have grown much larger than I anticipated.

 

[cerlawson]

OK here goes. I am a civil engineer, specializing in soil engineering (now known as geotechnical engineering. I did my Master's Degree in drainage of ground under highways and have solved many a problem with wet conditions at houses, including the one I now own. My age is 88 and I still work at it.

First off forget the term French Drain. I prefer the term under-drain. Also never use gravel backfill. Gravel that is washed stone, etc has large void spaces. That easily fills with fine soil and the drain plugs up. You want this to last forever, right. Gravel will fail in time.

As I view what you have maybe one guy is right that you surround the place with a drain, like a castle in a moat. With sloping ground maybe one deep drain on the uphill side. Where you drain the water to comes next. If there is sufficient slope to the ground you daylight the outlet. If you are in cold country that drain may freeze over so annual protection with straw may be needed. The object of this drain, either surrounding or on the up-hill side is to collect water and lower the water table level down-stream from that drain. Don't go too shallow.

Then the drain ditch. I never allow any gravel, clean gravel, pea gravel or other material with large void spaces on the property. It might be used by well meaning workers. The best all-around backfill to a drain system is ASTM C-33 concrete fine aggregate, known as concrete sand. You get from a ready-mix concrete company. It might be possible to use a well graded bank-run sand and gravel, but the percentage passing the No. 200 sieve should not exceed 5 percent. While water won't run as fast in this material, it still is faster than the soil from which the water comes. Next, you don't want that sand getting in the pipe. If you use the slotted pipe, the slots cannot exceed 1/16". A drain pipe available is slotted and also fitted with a filtering sock. Years ago there was an Armco pipe with 3/16" holes only on the lower 1/3, but probably not available now.

This form of drain is best done like this. Know what elevations the bottom of your trench must be at all locations. A plan on paper is recommended. Start your trench at the outlet or at a sump that will then have a pump. (remember that pump will use a lot of electricity over the years).

As you dig the trench it may want to cave in, so you roll in your sock covered pipe, 3" is OK usually, as you dig. Immediately cover that pipe section with concrete sand sufficiently high to reach the water table there. Gradually add the pipe and follow with concrete sand. The zone above the water table could be excavated soil as backfill, but the easy way is to fill most of the trench with the concrete sand. Final backfill can be topsoil.

Remember if you use single size gravel for backfill, be prepared for it to plug and fail.

 

[cerlawson]

More from this old engineer. At a sump, you need to filter any area exposing the opening to ordinary soil. Best to have a crock with a hole for only that pipe. An open bottom pipe will work, but you must filter out any soil. You can lay filter fabric against that soil, but be sure it is a good filter. Woven fabric may not be. Also a layer of concrete sand followed by gravel works, but must be done right. It takes only a thin layer of sand to work.

 

[cerlawson]

Another tip. Some may want to fill some of the trench with open graded stone, but wrap it with a filter fabric. Sure that will work. go ahead. In the narrow trench you are digging getting the fabric in right, filling with stone and then getting a lap will be a real job. Then suppose the sides cave in before the lap is there. All in all it's a bitch of job and more time and labor intensive, besides being undependable. If suppose there is a little cave in for the method I describe and the pipe is accidentally laid on some cave-in. Short of some digging by hand, that hump in the line is not highly critical because the water in the pipe can exit via the slots and fabric to the porous and backfill and then re-enter down the line. Of course it is best not to have that.

Before anything is done do a simple survey of elevations around the site. If you have access to a surveying level or transit, that is fine. However, Take a carpenter's level and hold it at a fixed place on a support, such as a section of 2 x 4. Have a helper out there with a tape. Sight to him, keeping the level level. Record the height of the level above where you are standing, as well as the place on the tape out there as height above the ground. With a series of these shots you can get ground elevation differences from the "instrument" to the guy out there and then develop p a map showing elevations above a fixed place. Then laying out the drain you want at a slope of say 1/8" per foot, you can show on the map how deep you have to dig at each location. Actually even if you lay the pipe level, gravity will move the water toward an outlet. A slight slope is better.

I have found that it is not usually possible to dig a trench and lay a drain pipe into a area and expect water to flow to it from each side. Yes there will be drainage that way, but it is undependable. It is much better to cut off the flow from outside.

To check on what you are doing, before anything is done, with a post hole digger install some observation walls at critical places, such as along side the house on ALL SIDES.

These can be downspout pipes, slotted some near the bottom. Use a measuring tape and record water levels. Keep a record of the water ELEVATIONS in each pipe before and after the work. You may want to add more drains if you find not everything is perfect. For instances, in some areas water sneaks under the pipe and rises beyond. If that is a basement, you don't want that.

By the way, sealing leaks in a basement wall is just asking for trouble. If you then stop the release of water pressure from outside the wall by that sealing, you stand the chance of having the wall cave in due to added pressure out there.

 

[cerlawson]

OK, more from me.

The sloping of ground away from the house obviously is a good idea. My question is, when that water on the surface doesn't get away fast it soaks in then what do you do about it? Chances are at this place there isn't much backfill are to the house, but let's say there is a basement. In any case you also need to seal the ground surface, in addition to the sloping and running downspouts WELL away from the house. Any backfill is likely loose and slopes in layers toward the house. Water entering into that backfill naturally heads toward the house. Here is what I have done and it works well. Strip off the sod, re-grade the area to get slopes away from house. Go to a plumbing supply house and ask for drilling mud. be sure it is powdered bentonite, not granulated. This is cheap natural clay. It has the property of swelling 9 times it original volume. Mixed with most soil at a rate of 10 to 20 percent of volume, it takes on a little water and seals the pores. Get a roto tiller that can till about 3 inches . Spread the bentonite powder at a rate of about 2 to 3 pounds per square foot. Roto tlll it in and replace the sod. Too much bentonite and not sufficient depth and insufficient mixing can result in problems. This stuff when wet is very slick. It will suck water in and holds it a long time in dry weather. If in doubt, mix some at different rates and place in a coffee can with holes punched in the bottom. Watch how fast or slow the water on top will soak in. Work around bushes and walk ways. Cover all areas likely to have water soaking in.