Diesel in oil...test

[Mudball]

Before I dig too deep into a fuel pump, injectors, etc...
I can only assume there is diesel fuel mixed in with the oil because its very thin, quite transparent on the dipstick, it drips like runny water from the dipstick and I can almost bet I smell diesel on the dipstick. But I just want to make sure. Should I drain the oil and see if I can see something there ? Is there a trick, test, or some method to just make sure there is diesel in the oil before I continue ?

 

[coachgeo]

only other thing it could be is water/coolant and that would appear as a white froth in the oil.

hmmm... ok I may be wrong here. This is a tractor and those also have hydraulic fluid and not a vehicle which by process of elimination you can figure it is diesel cause they have only lube, fuel and coolant. But still.... don't think there is any way for Hydraulic oil to get into an L245 engine.

between engine and tranny is a friction clutch so there is no hydraulic fluid there in contact with the engine. Only o path between hydraulics and engine is maybe the hydraulic pump on the IP. Can that indirectly allow hydraulic fluid to cross into the engine? I've got huge doubts that it can but I'm still a newbie.

 

[Mudball]

Thanks coachgeo.
I think you hit everything perfectly and explained it well. I feel the same as you that the problem is probably diesel.
I could do an oil change but would like to determine possible diesel fuel first.
Another way to ask my question is how can I determine what I believe to be diesel, really is diesel fuel and not just thin oil ?

 

[phaser]

I would do a used oil analysis (UOA) to confirm, and it will tell you the % of fuel dilution in the oil. Along with that you would get an idea of the over all health of the engine.

I use Amsoil test kits processed by Polaris Laboratories, but Blackstone is popular too, and I also include oxidation, nitration, and Base number (TBN). TBN measures the amount of active additive package that is left.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/other-products/oil-analysis-services/

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free-test-kits.php

Here's what a UOA looks like: http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/album.php?albumid=437&pictureid=2370

.

 

[Mudball]

Thanks for the help.
Learn something new every day.
I will definitely keep this in mind. Very interesting.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

don't think there is any way for Hydraulic oil to get into an L245 engine.

between engine and tranny is a friction clutch so there is no hydraulic fluid there in contact with the engine. Only o path between hydraulics and engine is maybe the hydraulic pump on the IP. Can that indirectly allow hydraulic fluid to cross into the engine? I've got huge doubts that it can but I'm still a newbie.

Yes hydraulic fluid can get into the motor very easily via the seal on the input shaft of the hydraulic pump, it's semi common for the seal to go out and fill the motor full of hydraulic fluid.

 

[Mudball]

Oh no !
Something else for me to worry about.
Im starting to think more about the oil test that phaser mentioned.
Thanks

 

[phaser]

Mb, When you get the first report back, they generally keep the remaining oil sample you sent in for 30 days in case you want any further testing (Polaris Labs).

If there is fuel dilution, I think they might be able distinguish diesel fuel from hydraulic oil, you'd have to call and ask about that, and if they can (minimal additional cost), they would test just for that and add it to the original report and send a new report out.

.

 

[coachgeo]

Yes hydraulic fluid can get into the motor very easily via the seal on the input shaft of the hydraulic pump, it's semi common for the seal to go out and fill the motor full of hydraulic fluid.

ahhhhh.. thanks for that education

 

[100 td]

Is the level on the dipstick higher than normal?

 

[Mudball]

Thanks for all the help.
I will remember that phaser. Good to know.
If it is 100 td then its about 1/8 to 1/4 inch more Im guessing. The fluid is so clear looking around the top side level mark that its hard to see a definite line. I havent had this tractor a long time. The oil was changed right after I bought it because the guy selling it said he would. Anyway Ive always first checked the oil level under low light conditions in the shed. Then like the radiator I would open the top, shine my phone light to look down the neck to see the antifreeze level but never used my phone light to get an exact level mark on the oil dipstick. There was always enough light that I could however, see that the level was up around the full mark on the dipstick in low light conditions. It wasnt until a couple of days ago when I checked it again outside in the direct sunlight and I seen a whole different picture.

 

[Mudball]

After my last post I thought about what I said about not being able to see a definitive oil mark line on the dipstick and researched enough to find out that the diesel will settle to the top. This may explain why the look of the oil is so clear looking especially at the top of the dipstick.
Im going to get a more accurate level later today.
Thanks again.

I was thinking...something Im not good at.
Anyway I was thinking of draining the oil this morning. Mix the oil up in the bucket real good because I cant run the engine right now, then put some in a glass jar and set in the sun and I was thinking I should see a clear diesel fuel separation in time. I was also thinking that if it were hydraulic fluid then I wouldnt have such a clear separation. But what the heck do I know ? This is my first time in this situation.

 

[Kingcreek]

How much over the full mark is it?
Its not uncommon for a little to leak past the rings on cold starts or operating under load before engine temps are up. How many hours on engine?

 

[Mudball]

Thanks for the help.
The level was roughly around 1/8" above the fill mark.
I just drained the oil this morning so I cant check it anymore soon.
Hours is around 560.
My compression results were good a couple of weeks ago if I havent damaged anything.

 

[ShaunRH]

Thanks for the help.
The level was roughly around 1/8" above the fill mark.
I just drained the oil this morning so I cant check it anymore soon.
Hours is around 560.
My compression results were good a couple of weeks ago if I havent damaged anything.

At 560 you shouldn't be getting any fuel in via the cylinders. That is not necessarily true for the injection pump seal though. If that seal leaks, the injection pump will happily push fuel out and into the oil sump.

Dipstick level test is usually best indicator, along with MK1 calibrated nose.

Hydraulic fluid will have a different smell. It smells more like cutting oil. You'll also loose fluid levels in the transmission.

 

[Mudball]

Thanks again.
I will definitely keep that in mind.
Good tips.

 

[lugbolt]

if there's diesel getting into the oil, the most likely cause is a failing mechanical lift pump. Diaphragm leaks, dumps fuel directly into the crankcase. Sometimes an injector, but usually at that point, there are other complaints. Smoke, knock, rough running, leaks by with engine off an hydraulically locks the engine, etc.

Didn't see what tractor you had or if it even has a lift pump, but out of 10 Kubota tractors with diesel in the crankcase, 9.9 of them were a failed lift pump.

 

[philkent]

Before I dig too deep into a fuel pump, injectors, etc...
I can only assume there is diesel fuel mixed in with the oil because its very thin, quite transparent on the dipstick, it drips like runny water from the dipstick and I can almost bet I smell diesel on the dipstick. But I just want to make sure. Should I drain the oil and see if I can see something there ? Is there a trick, test, or some method to just make sure there is diesel in the oil before I continue ?

This happened on my g1800 years ago and it was the injector pump from memory

 

[Mudball]

Thanks for the help.
So far everything is looking good. I have three new injectors and a rebuilt injector pump. It starts and runs better as well.
I could not have done it without all the great help.
Thanks again.

 

[Dave_eng]

If there is a mechanical lift pump feeding the injection pump, it is the cheapest and first thing to suspect with your symptoms.
When the pump diaphragm starts to leak the fuel ends up in the crankcase.
Dave M7040