Tier 4 Rant - Not Kubota

Dalroo

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Aug 24, 2015
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So, three years ago this week, I upgraded from a RAM 1500 Hemi to a 2500 Cummins due to my towing needs. The Hemi would pull my toyhauler, but fuel mileage would drop to 5-6 mpg when hooked up. With a 20 gallon fuel tank it would require filling up every hundred miles or so when pulling to camping trips. And even with a weight distribution hitch, the ride was pretty rotten.

In early 2013 I bought a leftover 2012 RAM 2500 which does not require DPF, but does go into regen fairly often. The other issue with the process is that the oil changes are more frequent - maybe every 2500 to 3000 miles - at $100 a pop. I also change the fuel filter annually at about $50 each.

Recently, even though I have a new air filter, the SERVICE AIR FILTER warning light was coming on whenever I accelerated hard, and would then reset when I turn key off, then stay off until the next hard acceleration. Repeat.

I've been sitting on a few recall notices, but this morning decided to take it in to dealership to get recalls done, and find out why it is throwing error codes. I am just out of warranty, so we started with a $120 diagnostic which will be credited to any necessary repairs. The service manager told me, although we are not sure yet, that most of the Cummins RAMs require what they call a 67,000 mile service (not an official number, just rule of thumb, and I am at 61,000), and that could be kicking off the warning light. This is at least $1,200.

The 2500 has done everything I've asked, pulling my TT, tractor on heavy trailers, etc., but the ongoing maintenance costs are really making me think of moving back to the HEMI and simply dealing with the towing limitations.

I am between a rock and a hard place. I don't need the tow capacity that often, maybe 3 or 4 times a year, but when I need it, I really need it. Backing down to the 1/2 ton also limits how far we are willing to travel on camping trips with the family. I really wish there was a 1/2 ton gasser with just a bit more capability. Even if I downsized my camper, there are still times I need to haul a trailer and the tractor, and I just don't feel as safe in a 1/2 ton.

Not really looking here for answers, more just ranting for release of frustrations, but would take suggestions if there is a solution.
 
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ShaunRH

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Well, the solution is to vote the people that put these laws in effect out of office. Short of that, sell the 2012 and buy one from pre-2008. I'm going to buy my brothers 1998 12V diesel when he decides to 'upgrade'. I'll take the mechanical injected, simple diesel any day of the week.
 

hodge

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Well, the solution is to vote the people that put these laws in effect out of office. Short of that, sell the 2012 and buy one from pre-2008. I'm going to buy my brothers 1998 12V diesel when he decides to 'upgrade'. I'll take the mechanical injected, simple diesel any day of the week.
That will never happen- you can't vote away the EPA. They set the madates, and they are so entrenched, there is no going back.
 

Daren Todd

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The dodge seems cheaper to service then the power stroke. Oil filter alone is 75$, then 5 gallons of oil or so on top of it. I'm in the habit of replacing the fuel filter every oil change. But then at work we tow constantly. They just switched to a v10 in the service truck. It gets 8 miles to the gallon on the highway, and 5 miles to the gallon when pulling anything over 4,000 lbs. And gutless in the hills.

Personally, if I was to get a diesel, I would want one that uses the diesel exhausts fluid. There's quite a bit less issues with them. Our 2011 power stroke has 160k miles on it, with out issues. Our 2009 power stroke has left me sitting on the side of the highway a couple times for exhaust temp sensors. If they go bad, it will not let you start the truck.

Our 08 power stroke with the dpf blew the motor at 120k miles. By the time the engine had blown, we had spent 12,000$ for repairs on motor issues, after it went out of warranty.

Talking to a couple of our hot shot guys that use dodge one tons. The trucks with the particulate filter had issues with the mass airflow sensor. If they went bad, then they would start spitting out codes.
 

Daren Todd

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One more thing. He told a written break down of what the 67,000 mile service covers. There may be a belt change, injection cleaning, shocks, struts, ect..... There are some things that are recommended, but not needed at this time. So you can apply good judgement to it :D
 

Dalroo

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He did break down the "67,000" mile service - it was all filters, fluids, and a few items related to sensors. No belts, or other hard parts. He called a bit ago and I whittled it down to $300 or so, since much of what they wanted to do, I do on my own, and have done recently. Blamed the error codes on a non-Mopar air filter. We'll see.
 

85Hokie

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He did break down the "67,000" mile service - it was all filters, fluids, and a few items related to sensors. No belts, or other hard parts. He called a bit ago and I whittled it down to $300 or so, since much of what they wanted to do, I do on my own, and have done recently. Blamed the error codes on a non-Mopar air filter. We'll see.
Glad to see the dealer didnt try to pull the a fast one on you. Sometimes a little extra service earlier than expected is not that bad, if this $300 gets you another 50k miles before something like this happens again - it is money well spent.:)
 

OldeEnglish

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Sounds like you got out of that one cheap. Buddy of mine used to have a ford 6 liter and every time it went to the shop it was at least $1500. Got another friend with a dura max and he says the same thing, every time the engine light comes on its at least $1000. The ford was in the shop at least twice a year. He couldn't wait to get rid of the diesel and went back to gas. Diesel trucks are great until you have to fix them, just like anything I guess. I hear a lot of times the newer engines hold up well but everything else does not. Quality has gone right out the door on them all a long time ago!
 

Jimc3165

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Dairoo, I feel your pain. I bought a 2007.5 the 1st year Dodge came out with the 6.7 and it met the 2010 EPA specs. It was in the shop nearly every month for the 1st year but finally got all the bugs out of it and I'm really loving my Cummins. The 67K service mainly pops a Check engine light when the CCV filter gets stopped up. It is very easy to change out. There is tons of info on this forum http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/ also I got concerned when I had around 80K that I was going to have to replace the turbo and particulate filter so mysteriously all of the EPA junk just fell off my truck. :eek: I tow my 5th wheel and gross we are at about 22.5K and I get 11.5 to 12 MPG in the N GA mountains. :D
 

MadMax31

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All the new diesels' are choked down and backed up soo bad by EPA devices it actually kills the engines far too soon. A prime example is the Powerstroke 6.0. The new 6.7 Cummins has all the "goodies" that has been ruining the other oil burners for years now. Tier 4 is the worst thing to happen to diesels ever. I refuse to own Tier 4 anything. DPF, Urea Injection, EGR? Gimme a break. These new engines HAVE to make massive torque numbers to overcome Govt handcuffs slapped on them.
 

ShaunRH

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That will never happen- you can't vote away the EPA. They set the madates, and they are so entrenched, there is no going back.
There are two kinds of departments, Executive Departments and Independent Agencies.

Executive Departments are under direct control of POTUS and unless established by the Constitution or Law, can be done away with at the POTUS' pleasure. Their Heads can be removed at any time by the POTUS. Department of Education is one of these.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_executive_departments

Independent Agencies are led by Committee and the POTUS appoints members to the Committee. EPA is one of these. Given the turnover in the Committee's a President can usually have most members replaced and dancing to their tune before the end of their term, which is why the EPA has changed so much in tone over the last several years. It took time to get rid of all the BUSH appointees. It would take Congressional Action to wipe out the EPA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_agencies_of_the_United_States_government

However, the EPA's stance on issues can be directly influenced by the POTUS either by committee replacement choices or by funding allocation battles.
 

Tooljunkie

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I cant even imagine the time, money and fuel wasted over these new tier 4 regulations. Highway tractors are under strict guidelines and the end user is the one out of pocket. Winter road trucking is virtually impossible with these epa regulated trucks.
Guys are buying pre-emissions trucks and rebuilding them from the ground up. Simply to be able to make a trip without a breakdown and a 5000 dollar tow job. The winter road season like this year will be very short, a breakdown could bankrupt a small operator.
 

CaveCreekRay

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Its not about the environment. Its about using big government socialist tactics to destroy free-market capitalism. Obama said he would bankrupt the coal industry and he did. He wants to do the same with our vast over-road distribution system. The costs of this are added to everything we eat or consume. His mentor was a Marxist-communist, Frank Marshall Davis.


Votes DO have consequences. Screw up the 2016 vote and they win. Game over.
 

Dalroo

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Okay, quick update, and I am back happy again, not with Tier 4, but very pleased with my dealership's service department.

I picked up my 2500 this morning, and they had completed the recall services, fixed a leaking seal in the axle (under drive-train warranty), replaced the air filter with a MOPAR filter, and replaced the windshield wipers per my request. They waived the diagnostic fee, charged no labor, and only billed me for the filter and blades. Total bill was $72.

Time will tell if the error code is gone for good, but all in all a pretty good experience. If you are in north Texas, I highly recommend Allen Samuels at Alliance.
 

Greenhead

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All the new diesels' are choked down and backed up soo bad by EPA devices it actually kills the engines far too soon. A prime example is the Powerstroke 6.0. The new 6.7 Cummins has all the "goodies" that has been ruining the other oil burners for years now. Tier 4 is the worst thing to happen to diesels ever. I refuse to own Tier 4 anything. DPF, Urea Injection, EGR? Gimme a break. These new engines HAVE to make massive torque numbers to overcome Govt handcuffs slapped on them.
We drive Ford 6.7s now, and yes they are sophisticated. However, no problems. That motor is the only pickup motor that was designed for the task (2011). The others (including older Fords) had extra pollution control add ons to an old motor design and junk. I hear what you're saying MadMax. For every action there is a reaction. All of it is new mandates and the corporations are just hanging on parts trying to get by. After they all figure out what works and have those design factors built into the new motors it will get better. Until then "we" are the Research and Development Department...
 
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ShaunRH

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Clean Air Nonroad Diesel Rule signed by President Bush in 2004.

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/ceq/clean-air.html
Those standards appear to be what created Tier 2 emissions controls, mostly removing the sulfur from diesel. Tier 4 started shortly after 2009 and was fully in place by 2014 in agriculture. I don't think Bush was directly responsible for Tier 4 but some of his appointees may still have been on the committee responsible for establishing it.
 

eddiebob

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Emissions is the reason why I bought and still drive a 2005 Dodge/Cummins. 135k and zero problems. Bought the wife a 2006 MB diesel car for the same reason, straight 6 and none of the emissions BS. And the emissions regulations aren't going away any time soon. Ed B