Digging shallow well with phd

cerlawson

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Stubb:

On the filtering subject. consider the place where the silt gets stopped before movng farther into the system. If your zone around the pipe is all concrete sand, (I expect the pipe will not be laid right on the bottom in contact with mud) , the silt will stop at that silt- mud contact. The reason I state that is from Corps of Engineer studies in 1938 as well as my work checking subdrains for a Master's degree. The gradation of concrete sand is perfect for all soils carried by water. Adding the sock on the pipe there is not needed.

However, if you have any gravel in the backfill, as you noted in your first post, yes a filter on the pipe is needed, since gravel is not a filter. Experience here in Wisconsin the state guys who approve building code changes, etc. have noted that many of these sock covered foundation drains have failed when the silt builds up on the sock over the slots. Per foot of pipe that is a very small area as compared to the area of sand-mud contact per foot.

I used to specify that fooundation drains have clean-outs so they can be maintained. However, through the years I have found they never have had to be cleaned if the backfill around the pipe is concrete sand. So, I no longer specify clean-outs. In all the past 58 years of my engineering work, that includes many diferent drainage systems, not one has failed, to my knowledge. All had backfill is only concrete sand, no gravel. On the contrary, I have seen many a failed drain system with sock on the pipe and backfill as gravel, some failing the first year.

Getting architects and engineers to use concrete sand instead of gravel is difficult, but I have made considerable progress with various clients. It's very easy when the failure is one year after installation.
 

cerlawson

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I was not able to find the C of E paper from 1938, but I copied a detail from a paper on levee design. This is the drain trench needed at the levee toe to keep it from losing soil due to water seepage. The appendix D was not included. Here they show a gravel around the pipe mainly because the sand may not be meeting concrete sand requirements. Gravel keeps the sand out of the pipe. If pipe has 3/16 or smaller holes underneath or 1/16" slots, and concrete sand is backfill, the gravel is not needed.

One might argue that a geotech fabric in the trench surrounding gravel will do it. Yes, but it is a bitch to get that right. My method is cheaper and easier to do. NOTE THE TEXT IS FOR A WELL NEARBY, BUT WORDS ALSO APPLY TO THE DRAIN TRENCH.
 

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Stubbyie

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CERLawson, you have my attention and I defer to your greater experience and expertise. You and I are similarly afflicted, but mine is a different sub-subspecialty within the larger trade.

ASTM defines a concrete sand and in your area there may be some. I know that spherical sand out of your genral area is mined and transported nationwide for its specific applicability in hydraulic fracturing of deep oil and gas wells. My understanding is that sand for concrete applications should be more angular. Angular sand makes lousy fracturing proppant due to embedment.

Which brings me to this: in my area every bit of sand used in concrete applications is mined from rivers. Gravel the same, unless it's shale screenings. The stuff is filthy. I don't know that you can--practically--wash it enough to remove the finest silt. It's not 'right' but it works, probably more due to the forgiveness of the concrete system than anything else.

I specify use of geotextiles (typically woven for the general applications under discussion, although in some instances needle-punched) at every opportunity. The best stuff since sliced bread. Being frugal, and not having any handy for my horizontal collection well, I used a $5 sock from a box store as an approximation. Crews installing geotextiles, once trained and overseen, do a decent job of installation. Sloppy contractors are always a problem.

Understanding that there is some evidence that filter socks by whatever name may and can plug, I've had no problem with mine. I have another that's been in the ground, configured roughly the same as discussed here, to handle the condensate off my home HVAC--akin to a septic lateral as mentioned here by by ShaunRH--for 23 years. I try to remember to slug it with a quart of household bleach every couple years to knock the biofouling but otherwise leave it alone. I know from my observation port that this drain stays 'submerged' most but not all of the time, so there is flow back and forth through the sock with little or no effective plugging.

Aside: I tried a block of HTH pool hypochlorite in the condensate stream but never could make it 'tight' enough to prevent an occasional scent of chlorine in the house when atmospheric / barometric pressure changed suddenly--which around here can be three times a day.

I like your idea of cleanouts for foundation drains. Not something I get much involved with. However, when we built we (spouse also similarly afflicted and more tightly wrapped than I) had EVERY sewerage line run all the way from one side of the house to the other with entries (aka clean-outs) at each end. Being in the county had no problem except the plumbers telling us it wouldn't work and being contrary. Did same in town and had to override local inspector with some paperwork that he well and truly didn't like nor appreciate. Rarely have the need (visiting city kin thinking rural septic can handle diapers comes to mind) but when stoppage occurs just run a hose, the snake, or pull a pig in a straight line--fast, clean, and easy.

Veering slightly here about that local offical of AHJ: sucker tried to make us put an electric water heater on a stand. Huh? No gas supply present. He stood firm. So we again had to solve the problem. This kind of silly stuff just drives me bonkers.

Good discussion. Thanks for your time and input. I'll look up that paper and have a read. Always good on a rainy cool morning.
 

cerlawson

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Stubb: Your gift of the language is way beyond me. Any how if you wish to check on concrete sand, your state highway department has a set of specifications for everything they use. More likely they define the size percentages for concrete sand as well as the coarse aggregate. No organic matter is allowed usually. Very likely they meet the ASTM specs, which are universally accepted world wide, since a lot of evaluations are necessary before any are final. Similar specs are put forth by the AASHTO group (American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials.) I would doubt that your state departments would accept anything less than the ASTM specs.

http://www.oregrinder.com/solutions/crushing-plant/concrete-sand-production-equipment.html

Making the sand meet the spec takes a lot of effort. Good tractor operating. I wish my computer worked as well ad the tractor here. Suddenly I lost my bookmarks.
 

ipz2222

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More info than I was expecting but well worth it. The well is mostly asthetic, as you can see in the flower garden but still an available source of emergency water. I walk by it every day on my way to work and pump some water out , just cause I can. I plan on haveing it tested at the local water co to see if it's drinkable. I'm sure they'll say no. Thanks for all the replies and hi tech information. At least I'll have the info available if I plan on digging another one.
 

Daren Todd

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Looks really good :D i'm not gonna show it to my wife though, or else she would be putting me to work:rolleyes:
 

D2Cat

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ipz2222, if you're going to have your water tested take two samples. Tell them one is yours and the other is your neighbors. (When you told "him' you were going to have your water tested he said he would like his tested also.)

That's what I did with the water from my well. I also insisted they do not get the samples mixed up. What ever it takes, don't get them mixed!!

They called me in a few days. "Got some good new and some bad news."

The good news was my neighbor's water was excellent. My water, well, we needed to set up an appointment to see what we could do to get it drinkable.

Needless to say, I never gave them another minute.
 

skeets

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Way kull so what did you do in the end how did you set it up,, sure would have been nice to see how ya done it
 

Stubbyie

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In my state, the state will do water testing for free and even furnish you the sterile sample containers. Contact your local or nearest State Univ Cooperative Extension Office.

I wouldn't trust your local water supplier as they have a vested interest in you paying them.

When sampling, wash your hands thoroughly, like a doctor. Do not touch the sample container to the faucet lip and before sampling let the water run for full minute or more. Stop the flow and use a lighter to sterilze the faucet lip, then run water for 15-seconds and insert sample container into flowing stream.

Fill sample container fully unless otherwise instructed, cap tightly, and label immediately. Some sample containers will come with a tiny white pill inside. Be certain to leave the pill present when taking sample.

You may need to overnight mail or drive the sample to the state lab--you only have a day or so to get it analysed. Take and submit samples only on Mon-Tues-Wed never on Thur-Fri as arrival at lab on Monday will negate sample.

I too had a similar result as another poster when taking a sample from a rural water well.

I submitted three samples all from the same well all taken at the same time under the same conditions.

Labeled one 'water well', another 'neighbor fire hydrant', another 'neighbor rural water'---we had all three on the place. The only 'bad' test that came back was the 'water well'--undrinkable be sure to contact your rural water supply company for a hookup it said. I raised hell but since the sample was gone couldn't prove anything. My account got 'flagged'---I sample every year---and now all my samples come back 'good', whether actually tested or not I don't know.

Due to this and because I have access to an analytical laboratory complete with incubators and spectrometers and a spouse that can drive all the instuments we now do our own testing. And I still submit annually to state just to keep everybody honest.

However, in my rural area I've had others (for whom I've conducted sampling myself) have the same outcome with the state lab.

An aside and a prediction: individual domestic water supply wells are under attack and at some point will each be licensed and taxed and govt controlled. Some places already are.

Please post back your continuing experiences so we may all learn.
 

cerlawson

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For what it is worth here is something. The simplest test is nothing more than dribbling a water laden instrument over a glass with gelatin on it. Then it is allowed to "cook" in a warm place to see what organisms grow. The count of e-coli bacteria colonies per liter is the test. Since e coli usually are not hazardous, a few (maybe 4) is considered OK. The reason being that the percentage of pathogenic bacteria is very low against the much higher numbers of e coli bacteria, usually. Chemical tests also can be run, but the e coli test is required as a minimum. So, who is to judge what is passable? Taking three samples and finding one doesn't pass tells you the water is on that arbitrary limit only. It didn't measure any bad bacteria.

Since this is an engineering thing, here is what the situation is for structural engineers. Similar definition can be applied to sanitary engineers or medical doctors for that matter.

"Engineering is the art of modelling materials we do not wholly understand, into shapes we cannot precisely analyze, so as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance."
 

ipz2222

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skeets, sorry I didn't take pictures while digging. When I got as deep as I could, I put the 8" pvc pipe in and graveled around it. Then inserted the 1" down tube with a foot valve 1 foot from the bottom. Mounted the pump on top and let it set for 2 days. Primed the pump and it works. I found the layer of rock on another part of my property that's exposed, about 4" thick clay rock. If I had been able to get thru that , it would have been deeper.