Kubota D1105 No Start Black Smoke

[ElectricLee13]

Hey everyone, I have an older Toro Groundsmaster with a Kubota D1105 engine that I can't get to start. I've made a lot of progress and feel like I'm so close but just won't catch.

I received this mower in a trade, the guy claimed he got it from an apartment complex that upgraded after the previous groundsman was repairing it and passed away at some point before finishing. So they had no knowledge of what was wrong, it was missing the starter and after sitting for so long the motor was locked up with a little bit of water in the cylinders. I used a boat load of Kroil and over time got the motor spinning freely, got all the Kroil/water out of the cylinders by turning it over a few times then loaded it with Kroil again to stop the rust.

Replaced the starter, injectors, and glow plugs. Drained fuel system and added 5gal fresh diesel. Pretty sure I got the air bled out. Cranked without injector lines until all 3 were pulsing a solid shot of diesel. Added the lines but left cracked at all injectors until I had diesel pulsing at all cylinders then tightened. I'm getting a solid puff of black smoke on every compression stroke and it sounds so close to catching but just won't. Glow plugs are tested working fine.

I'm sure I'm getting good fuel to all cylinders since I'm getting the black smoke. But really not sure what I should try next. Tried to get a compression test kit but it didn't have the right size for this smaller motor so waiting on an adapter.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

hmm, how long are you 'preheating' the glowplugs ? 5-10-30 seconds ?
Also is the battery a GOOD battery, fully charged ?

 

[MOOTS]

What groundsmaster is it? I have 2, 328-D with 1105’s I take care of and they fire within a few revolutions.

Need to do a compression test. May have a dead cylinder or 3.

 

[ElectricLee13]

hmm, how long are you 'preheating' the glowplugs ? 5-10-30 seconds ?
Also is the battery a GOOD battery, fully charged ?

Here's a video of the engine cranking over. https://youtube.com/shorts/XoOcN1ufjQE?si=8p3sTMwOtkDUrcKG

I usually will kick the key to the first position which lights the glow plugs for like 7 sec, then it also re-engages the plugs the whole time the keys turned to "cranking" so they will be on anywhere from 15-20 sec by the time I stop cranking. They get red hot within 3 seconds when tested. As for the battery, that may be a bottleneck. I don't have a "car" battery to test with currently, so I'm using 2 decent sized UPS batteries wired in parallel, with a 60a battery charger/engine start. Probably going to try to use my truck battery tomorrow and see if it spins her any faster.

 

[ElectricLee13]

What groundsmaster is it? I have 2, 328-D with 1105’s I take care of and they fire within a few revolutions.

Need to do a compression test. May have a dead cylinder or 3.

Yeah you definitely might be right, still waiting on that stupid m8 adapter to get delivered since the kit I got only goes to m10 glow plugs for testing. And I have a Groundsmaster 7200, she's got pretty high hours so it could be time for a rebuild, I did pull the valve cover and all rockers/arms seem to have the same amount of movement so hopefully all the valves are seating/moving right.

I also added a video to the comment above so you can see how it's turning over. Maybe you can let me know if it seems to be spinning slow compared to what you're used to.

 

[Russell King]

Seems a tad slow to me.

And if you can get it to glow for 15 seconds before you crank that should help.

Does it have a decompression knob to let it spin up to speed? If so I would use it also.

 

[ElectricLee13]

Seems a tad slow to me.

And if you can get it to glow for 15 seconds before you crank that should help.

Does it have a decompression knob to let it spin up to speed? If so I would use it also.

Gosh I wish it had a decompression knob but I didn't see anything in the service manual for this model. As for the glow plugs, sadly it has a glow plug controller that only runs them for 7 sec, then reactivates while cranking. I'm not technically using a battery rated for cranking an engine so that definitely could be a concern. I'm going to try my agm truck battery tomorrow though.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

You need a GREAT battery to start most diesels !
You a lot of battery is used to power the glowplugs,which kinda drains the battery and then ask that weakened battery to spin the engine over at fairly high revs to compress the fuel to ignite and run.
If the battery 'runs down' when preheating, engine won't spin fast enough to start.

My BX23S and others heat the glowplugs while starting,so 'double duty' for the battery.
I'd get a GREAT battery installed AND real good jumpers to a running vehicle's battery.

 

[Russell King]

You can probably overcome the glow plug controller in some way.

I know on my tractor if you don’t push the clutch down the starter won’t get the signal to crank. So you may be able to add some glow plug time in some similar manner???

 

[ken erickson]

Hey everyone, I have an older Toro Groundsmaster with a Kubota D1105 engine that I can't get to start. I've made a lot of progress and feel like I'm so close but just won't catch.

I received this mower in a trade, the guy claimed he got it from an apartment complex that upgraded after the previous groundsman was repairing it and passed away at some point before finishing. So they had no knowledge of what was wrong, it was missing the starter and after sitting for so long the motor was locked up with a little bit of water in the cylinders. I used a boat load of Kroil and over time got the motor spinning freely, got all the Kroil/water out of the cylinders by turning it over a few times then loaded it with Kroil again to stop the rust.

Replaced the starter, injectors, and glow plugs. Drained fuel system and added 5gal fresh diesel. Pretty sure I got the air bled out. Cranked without injector lines until all 3 were pulsing a solid shot of diesel. Added the lines but left cracked at all injectors until I had diesel pulsing at all cylinders then tightened. I'm getting a solid puff of black smoke on every compression stroke and it sounds so close to catching but just won't. Glow plugs are tested working fine.

I'm sure I'm getting good fuel to all cylinders since I'm getting the black smoke. But really not sure what I should try next. Tried to get a compression test kit but it didn't have the right size for this smaller motor so waiting on an adapter.

For what’s it’s worth. My opinion from watching the video the cranking rpm’s is fast enough. Given the history you outlined with water sitting in the cylinders and engine being locked up I think the compression readings is going to give you the answer as to why it will not start.

 

[Henro]

Yeah you definitely might be right, still waiting on that stupid m8 adapter to get delivered since the kit I got only goes to m10 glow plugs for testing. And I have a Groundsmaster 7200, she's got pretty high hours so it could be time for a rebuild, I did pull the valve cover and all rockers/arms seem to have the same amount of movement so hopefully all the valves are seating/moving right.

I also added a video to the comment above so you can see how it's turning over. Maybe you can let me know if it seems to be spinning slow compared to what you're used to.

I think the compression test will be key.

In the recent past, whitetiger, and experienced Kubota tractor mechanic who is also a moderator here, commented that it’s dangerous using the starter to turn an engine over when there’s liquids in the cylinders, even if the glow plugs are removed.. Doing so can end up bending the connecting rods.

The proper way from what I remember whitetiger saying, is to first turn the engine over by hand and expel most of the liquids that way.

I’m afraid that the compression test might tell you more than you want to know. No guarantee though and I hope not.

 

[ElectricLee13]

I think the compression test will be key.

In the recent past, whitetiger, and experienced Kubota tractor mechanic who is also a moderator here, commented that it’s dangerous using the starter to turn an engine over when there’s liquids in the cylinders, even if the glow plugs are removed.. Doing so can end up bending the connecting rods.

The proper way from what I remember whitetiger saying, is to first turn the engine over by hand and expel most of the liquids that way.

I’m afraid that the compression test might tell you more than you want to know. No guarantee though and I hope not.

Yeah I'm hoping for the best but expecting the worst. So when I first got the engine freed up I didn't have a starter delivered yet so I did crank by hand to get all the liquid out of the cylinders, I also had glow plugs and injectors pulled so it had plenty of room to get the liquids out so Im hopeful that I didn't bend anything during that process. Once I had the starter I still had everything removed the first few times I cranked it over to get the last bits of mist out.

 

[ElectricLee13]

For what’s it’s worth. My opinion from watching the video the cranking rpm’s is fast enough. Given the history you outlined with water sitting in the cylinders and engine being locked up I think the compression readings is going to give you the answer as to why it will not start.

Yeah definitely my biggest concern there. It's also, atleast according to the hour meter, a high hour machine so it's probably due for a rebuild. I'm just waiting for the adapter for my compression test kit to get delivered at this point, trying to see if I missed anything stupid along the way.

 

[ElectricLee13]

You can probably overcome the glow plug controller in some way.

I know on my tractor if you don’t push the clutch down the starter won’t get the signal to crank. So you may be able to add some glow plug time in some similar manner???

You're right, I forgot to mention I have tried that once or twice. I will remove the small wire from the starter so I can turn the key to the start position, then after 10-15 sec I'll use my power probe to supply the starter 12v control to get it spinning. Seems like it makes a little difference but still not enough to get it to catch.

 

[ElectricLee13]

You need a GREAT battery to start most diesels !
You a lot of battery is used to power the glowplugs,which kinda drains the battery and then ask that weakened battery to spin the engine over at fairly high revs to compress the fuel to ignite and run.
If the battery 'runs down' when preheating, engine won't spin fast enough to start.

My BX23S and others heat the glowplugs while starting,so 'double duty' for the battery.
I'd get a GREAT battery installed AND real good jumpers to a running vehicle's battery.

Yeah that's a very good point. Mine does the same where it's basically double duty when starting. My battery is dropping to right at 10v during cranking, which the manual says 9.7v and up is considered acceptable but im going to add my truck battery in parallel to see if it helps

 

[MOOTS]

Yeah you definitely might be right, still waiting on that stupid m8 adapter to get delivered since the kit I got only goes to m10 glow plugs for testing. And I have a Groundsmaster 7200, she's got pretty high hours so it could be time for a rebuild, I did pull the valve cover and all rockers/arms seem to have the same amount of movement so hopefully all the valves are seating/moving right.

I also added a video to the comment above so you can see how it's turning over. Maybe you can let me know if it seems to be spinning slow compared to what you're used to.

Seems like it’s spinning fast enough to me. When you checked the valves, did you check clearance on each at TDC (or overlap I think these are checked at)? I don’t have the manual in front of me for the spec at the moment.
What are the hours? My 328’s are 3500ish.

 

[ElectricLee13]

Seems like it’s spinning fast enough to me. When you checked the valves, did you check clearance on each at TDC (or overlap I think these are checked at)? I don’t have the manual in front of me for the spec at the moment.
What are the hours? My 328’s are 3500ish.

I did not, I'll be honest this is the first diesel I've tried working on and it's been a heck of a learning curve. The first time I tried reading the procedure I got confused because I think you're right that it's supposed to overlap a little and that threw me off. I'm going to reread that section and probably try to check clearances as well. The meter could be wrong if the key got left on for an extended period because the motor is pretty clean but its around 2500 if I remember correctly.

 

[lynnmor]

I did not, I'll be honest this is the first diesel I've tried working on and it's been a heck of a learning curve. The first time I tried reading the procedure I got confused because I think you're right that it's supposed to overlap a little and that threw me off. I'm going to reread that section and probably try to check clearances as well.

To avoid confusion do this:

Choose a valve to be adjusted.
Turn the engine till that valve has opened completely, doesn't need to be perfect.
Mark the crankshaft pulley with chalk.
Turn engine one turn till the mark is at the same place, doesn't need to be perfect.
Adjust that valve.
Remove the chalk mark.

Lather, rinse, repeat for each valve.

This procedure can be used on nearly every gas or diesel engine produced in the past 100 years. The purpose of the procedures stated in manuals is to reduce the engine turning, but it adds confusion. The method I suggested above is actually better as it insures that the lifter is on the base circle of the cam and not just close enough.

 

[lugbolt]

Here's a video of the engine cranking over. https://youtube.com/shorts/XoOcN1ufjQE?si=8p3sTMwOtkDUrcKG

it's got dead cylinders. 2 of them have little to no compression, one has barely enough to try to run. This based on my experience with them, and my ears/eyes.

Put a gauge on it. I would imagine one of them is 150-250 psi, the others probably less than 100. You need to see 350 or better. IIRC service limit is 380. New they're closer to 500 or a little over.

 

[lugbolt]

To avoid confusion do this:

Choose a valve to be adjusted.
Turn the engine till that valve has opened completely, doesn't need to be perfect.
Mark the crankshaft pulley with chalk.
Turn engine one turn till the mark is at the same place, doesn't need to be perfect.
Adjust that valve.
Remove the chalk mark.

Lather, rinse, repeat for each valve.

This procedure can be used on nearly every gas or diesel engine produced in the past 100 years. The purpose of the procedures stated in manuals is to reduce the engine turning, but it adds confusion. The method I suggested above is actually better as it insures that the lifter is on the base circle of the cam and not just close enough.

easier yet, the eoic method

turn engine til exhaust just starts to open. Check intake valve clearance. Then turn the engine til the intake valve opens, then almost closes (but not quite). Then adjust the exhaust valve. Once ya figure this out, you can do a check in a minute or two. Us race car guys have done it this way for decades and it works great, saves time.