Remote Oil Filter

[Bark]

I think later he even got a thermo switch installed so it only kicked on when it got hot.

Like the idea about a themo switch. How did you wire it up? Where did the sending unit connect? At what temp did it engage and disengage?
Interesting

Sorry but I didn't see the final install so I am not sure but I believe he got something like this https://www.amazon.com/American-Volt-Adjustable-Thermostat-Electric/dp/B01HNL84IS
But I thought he only paid about 12 bucks for it.

 

[GeoHorn]

Not to beat this subject to death.... be aware that SOME engine-designs have the bypass BUILT IN to some area of the engine-block. These engines DO NOT specify a filter with bypass.

For example, I know some Cummins engines have remote (to the filter) bypass valves. Infact, Cummins uses some 'tricks' to help the oil-pressure build up quickly when engine is started.... mainly because the injectors NEED oil-pressure to function. (Yes... some diesel engines use the engine-oil kinda like hydraulic fluid to operate the injectors.)

Most GM engines also have bypass-valve outside the filter.

Do not confuse the function of filter-bypass valve with the oil-pressure relief valve.... that is a different subject.

Actually, IMO, it is not a different subject.

The engine lubrication system has an over-pressure relief valve to prevent engine seals from being blown by an over-pressure event. Cold or Congealed oil might be a cause.

Oil filters have LARGE media area…and will pass cold oil because of that large area. The oil filter by-pass is solely for the purpose of preventing blockage of the filter media …. to prevent media collapse….. which could dump trash into the engine… Nothing to do with protecting an engine from over-pressure that already has an oil pressure relief of its’ own.
<edit: the following statement is incorrect…ignore please>
(A blocked filter does not starve the engine of lubricating oil because it is at the end of the system and is the return circuit. There is no danger of imminent loss of lubrication….The sump still supplies oil to the engine.)<end of edit>

Also, the assumption that a switch to synthetic oil is what solved your pull-start resistance is incorrect. As already evident…the resistance is due to oil viscosity alone. Synthetic oils come if a variety of viscosity grades and the synthetic you selected likely had a lower viscosity. The term “synthetic” is not a magical word, it only denotes the degree of refinement of the “dino” oil base from which it is made.
If you had used a low-viscosity non-synthetic oil you’d have had the same result.

The “reason” most (not “all”) modern vehicles call for synthetic is to support their economical operating promotional statements that tout long oil change intervals. The synthetic oils not only commonly come in very low viscosity (W) grades… they do not shear/break-down as readily as “mineral” oils and therefore can be operated for longer intervals. Most (not “all”) modern vehicles still allow “mineral” oils…. just require the same shorter intervals vehicles required a few years previously.

italicized text above was altered for clarification

 

[ruger1980]

So much wrong here it hurts!

 

[GeoHorn]

So much wrong here it hurts!

Not certain to whom or which post your comment was directed…

But just to support my comment… If one visits the WSM one will not likely find in the “Engine” section any references to the oil pressure relief valve which is incorporated into the engine design … and which is completely separate from any reliance upon an oil-filter bypass valve.

HOWEVER… if you reasearch engine overhaul comments… you WILL finally discover that the engine DOES INDEED have it’s own and separately replaceable oil over-pressure relief provision. In the event of High Oil Pressure the relief valve..NOT the filter … is to be replaced. In the case of Low Oil pressure the relief valve is to be cleaned or the relief valve spring is to be replaced.

Here’s a screen-shot of what is not mentioned in the Engine Section….but IS mentioned in the WSM oil pressure troubleshooting section.…despite the lack of instructional help on where and how to replace that valve which does indeed exist: (Notice that NO reference to the oil filter or its’ by-pass having any possible connection to the issue.)

 

[Bugs 01]

Well here I am all dressed up and no where to go!

Finally got the plumbing complete but am unclear and somewhat confused.

Here is my issue, Kubota Z482 running a Wix 51064 oil filter with the desire to convert to a remote oil filter. Ordered a Derale remote oil filter kit which contained the adapter to screw on the engine block in place of the filter, the remove filter base, hoses and etc.

I screwed the adapter on the engine block then ran 6-8 feet of hose to a location where the remote filer base could be mounted using ½" hose. I was advised by filter makes to use a large full flow filter at this location such as a Baldwin B-7 or similar. I was unable to locate this filter locally but the parts house was able to cross it over to a Fram PH373 which they say holds the same volume of 2 quarts. I did not put any oil in this filter but only added to the engine oil pan. It takes 2 quarts with the small filter change. I did a rough estimate on the volume of oil the hoses would contain. The engine started right up but then shut down. Added more oil and it started right up and ran a short time before shutting down again. Added more oil to where the system has almost 4 quarts of oil. Thinking there may be an air lock or something, I removed the filter expecting oil to come out but no oil spilled. Amazingly the filer was only maybe 3/4 full. I topped it off and when I attempted to start it, it would not turn over. I am getting current to the starter but did not have time to check the fuse at the starter, which I will do first of the week.

I am still wondering why the oil filter and hoses were not full of oil. Air lock, oil pump not capable to pumping oil 6-8 feet to the filter and 6-8 feet back to the engine?

Please give me your ideas.

Thanks again.

 

[GeoHorn]

The engine likely has a “Oil Low-Level Alert” system that shuts down if oil level drops below spec. Filling all those hoses and filter likely steals so much oil the Oil Low Level sensor is triggered.

The failure to rotate after all this is a separate issue. Did you attempt to “crank it” for long periods during the previous starts.? Maybe the starter or relay/solenoid is burned up?

(in a slightly-related story…. I had a Chonda… (chinese copy of a Honda) …generator that occasionally shut down for unknown reasons. It would re-start fine…but I never knew when it might shut down without apparent cause.
One day it refused to start at all (it was a pull-start machine) …and I unplugged the external leads to the crankcase low-oil sensor…. it started immediately and has run flawlessly for the last two years.
I reason that my Briggs & Stratton powered lawnmowers since childhood never had a low-oil-alert system and I just manually / occasionally checked the oil level when I re-fueled it. ….never having any problems whatsoever.
Bottom Line: Don’t be afraid to disable your Low Oil Level system. Like other ”safety-switches”…it’s more trouble than it’s worth in many cases.)

 

[BruceP]

It is obvious to me that there is some kind of 'safety' which is detecting low oil-pressure and shutting down the engine.

This is one reason why many folks 'prefill' an oil filter.

The entire time the engine is running...but just filling the filter... the engine (and turbocharger) is starved of oil. It only takes a minute or so to destroy a turbocharger by running it 'dry'. As soon as engine starts, the turbocharger bearings are spinning many thousands of RPM.

Some folks in the performance engine community actually use an electric oil-pump which serves to purge air from the plumbing to the remote filters and prelube the engine BEFORE starting. They also may keep this electric pump running after shutdown for a bit to cool off the bearings and turbocharger.

----------------
My suggestion is NOT to disable your sensors. Instead, prefill the filter and crank the engine UNTIL OIL PRESSURE COMES UP A BIT before allowing the engine to start.

Once the hoses and filter are purged... it will start and run normally after that.

 

[Bugs 01]

Yes the little engine has a low oil and high coolant switches. I believe the first 2 times it shut down was low oil because when additional oil was added it started and ran long enough to determine the oil was still low. Since opening the system and discovering the oil filter and lines were not full, I believe these must be filled before it will start and continue running. I have a T in the line where I can connect a pump and pump in additional oil. I thought I may be near the capacity of the oil pan, filter and hoses but maybe not.
I need to check the fuse on the starter solenoid tomorrow in regard to the failure to crank issue.
Thanks for the assistance.

 

[whitetiger]

(A blocked filter does not starve the engine of lubricating oil because it is at the end of the system and is the return circuit. There is no danger of imminent loss of lubrication….The sump still supplies oil to the engine.)

Actually, the engine oil flows from the pump, through the filter, and into the block. See pdf

 

[GeoHorn]

Actually, the engine oil flows from the pump, through the filter, and into the block. See pdf

Damn! I Hate it when that happens!

I looked at my M4700 and it does not provide such a diagram. However the same illustration as you posted does exist in my little RTV-X900 3-cyl diesel…exactly the same as you posted, whitetiger.

Thanks for the education on this Kubota difference.

The WSM for my M-series doesn’t illustrate how that F-series engine circulates. I’l like to see if all Kubota engines follow the same philosophy.

 

[ruger1980]

Most if not all modern engines use full flow filtration in their lube circuits if they are using filtration. I have not seen bypass only filters used on anything manufactured in the last 40-50 yrs. Everything Kubota produces uses full flow as far as I have seen, even my old L225 is full flow

You will still see bypass filters used on medium and heavy diesel engines to help extend service intervals.

You were right about the purpose of the filter bypass. it is there to protect the filter media. But it very rarely opens. The oil has to be very viscous or the element has to be almost completely plugged.

 

[BruceP]

The WSM for my M-series doesn’t illustrate how that F-series engine circulates. I’l like to see if all Kubota engines follow the same philosophy.

I am pretty sure I have NEVER seen a filter after the oil flows thru the engine. this is because the oil returns to the sump by dripping off of every bearing and sliding metal surface..... In other words, there is no single "return circuit" to place a filter after the oil is dispersed throughout the engine.

EVERY engine design I have ever seen or worked on has the oil pump PUSHING the oil thru the filter then into the engine. This goes back to at least the 1960s.

Perhaps you are thinking of HYDRAULIC systems which may run at many 100s of PSI. For these systems, a filter after the pump would literally explode. Hence, the filters are often placed on the suction-line of the filter.

I guess you may be thinking of a DRY SUMP engine which does not hold oil in the engine-crankcase. Instead, the oil is contained in a seperate sump. (Harly Davidson motorcycels are DRY SUMP engines.) I guess a filter could be placed between the crankcase and the oil-reseviour.

Some engines also add a secondary oil-filtration system which uses a dedicated pump intended to continuously recirculate oil thru VERY fine filters then back into the sump. (Kinda like a fish aquarium). These systems may be found on marine, rail and some equipment engines. Due to expense, this kind of system is rarely seen on equipment that you and I encounter.

Since oil does not actually "wear out" these filtration systems allow the oil to run nearly forever in the engine... only needing topped up with additives and filter-changes.

 

[whitetiger]

The WSM for my M-series doesn’t illustrate how that F-series engine circulates. I’l like to see if all Kubota engines follow the same philosophy.

Here is the lubrication schematic for your F2803 (92.4mm stroke 3, 4 & 5 cylinder engines)

 

[hagrid]

So which engine oil is the best to use?

 

[Pau7220]

So which engine oil is the best to use?

Just put engine oil or rotella in the search box... There's plenty of discussion, arguments, and manure spread on the subject... including last week.
It could actually be a separate forum!

 

[GeoHorn]

Thanks, tiger.

BruceP: I have no idea what I was thinking.
Having spent more than half my career working on various machinery and scores of engines… yet for some reason I had a bran-pharrt on this one! I can’t even blame it on a middle-of-the-night online-session. The engine with which I am most-familar has it’s oil pressure relief at the END of the gallery and perhaps I was idly associating that with the relief-valve contained in the spin on filters… that’s the image that popped into my mind (what little mind I have left over this one.).
That very same engine has it’s filter (a non-by-pass model) immediately subsequent to the oil pump also. Doh!

My apology to everyone. And sincere ”Thanks” for putting me back in line.

 

[Bugs 01]

Don't know what my problem is. On my Z482, 67mm bore 2 cylinder diesel engine, I replaced the spin on filter with a Dereale spin on filter adapter. I connected this adapter to a larger full flow filter at the remote filter base. I filled the oil pan to the required amount, and the remote filter. The engine starts then stops within seconds apparently the low oil pressure switch is properly working. I uncoupled the rubber hoses from and to the spin on filter adapter and started the engine to determine if any oil was flowing. On oil was coming from either line. I am confused. What have I missed? Why is no oil coming from either line?

 

[BruceP]

So which engine oil is the best to use?

There are other threads which discuss this question.

The 'bottom line' seems to be that ANY quality motor-oil which meets Kubota requirements will suffice as long as it is changed regularly. The engine is likely to outlive the rest of the machine.

 

[hagrid]

Just put engine oil or rotella in the search box... There's plenty of discussion, arguments, and manure spread on the subject... including last week.
It could actually be a separate forum!

Thx for the resources!

It looks like conventional Rotella T6 derived from PAO groups 1 & 2 is the bestest engine oil.

 

[Russell King]

Don't know what my problem is. On my Z482, 67mm bore 2 cylinder diesel engine, I replaced the spin on filter with a Dereale spin on filter adapter. I connected this adapter to a larger full flow filter at the remote filter base. I filled the oil pan to the required amount, and the remote filter. The engine starts then stops within seconds apparently the low oil pressure switch is properly working. I uncoupled the rubber hoses from and to the spin on filter adapter and started the engine to determine if any oil was flowing. On oil was coming from either line. I am confused. What have I missed? Why is no oil coming from either line?

Can you get the mower back to the original configuration and confirm it runs in that configuration? I would assume that the adapter used at the old oil filter location is incorrect for the engine.