Said No To An Excavator Purchase...:-(

[Henro]

As I mentioned in a previous thread, I determined that I need/want a mini EX, rather than a new L2501 with a BH77 backhoe. I looked at a TEREX HR13 on Tuesday, which is a 4000 pound machine, about 18 HP, made in Germany.

It started up quickly, cold, at a temp of 33 degrees. Had a cab and the hour meter said 1404 hours (not sure I believe this number). Manufactured in 2003. Pins seemed good with very little play, but the bucket was loose on the stick. I figured I could deal with that. Rubber tracks had good life left, driver sprockets looked like new.

Price ended up about $2K more than the cost of a subframe mounted BH77.

The sale situation was a little shaky. It was shown to me by the landlord of the owner, as he was in jail for repeated driving without a license offenses/convictions (and whatever else, who knows?). His sister would sign a bill of sale stating she was the owner, as she was selling the excavator on his behalf, and he gave it to her so she could sell it. The sister had the bill of sale for the machine, which was purchased in January 2020, from a dealer in this state. No manuals or other documentation.

A UCC search showed no liens against his name or the sister.

I operated it and it seemed OK, but certainly different than my tractor backhoe, so I could not really put it through its paces efficiently (learning curve).

I figured for the price, if I decided to purchase, the amount I would risking would not be a death blow to me worst case...

In the end, the deal breaker (along with the other concerns) was that I had great difficulty (in a couple hours on line) finding a source of parts, manuals, or even a dealer anywhere close by.

So I declined to purchase the excavator. I concluded I really should buy a name brand that has parts/manuals easily available and dealers close by, just in case.

What would you have done?

 

[River19]

I would have walked as well. For all those reasons, icing on the cake would have been the manuals and parts etc.

 

[MNVikingsGuy]

As I mentioned in a previous thread, I determined that I need/want a mini EX, rather than a new L2501 with a BH77 backhoe. I looked at a TEREX HR13 on Tuesday, which is a 4000 pound machine, about 18 HP, made in Germany.

It started up quickly, cold, at a temp of 33 degrees. Had a cab and the hour meter said 1404 hours (not sure I believe this number). Manufactured in 2003. Pins seemed good with very little play, but the bucket was loose on the stick. I figured I could deal with that. Rubber tracks had good life left, driver sprockets looked like new.

Price ended up about $2K more than the cost of a subframe mounted BH77.

The sale situation was a little shaky. It was shown to me by the landlord of the owner, as he was in jail for repeated driving without a license offenses/convictions (and whatever else, who knows?). His sister would sign a bill of sale stating she was the owner, as she was selling the excavator on his behalf, and he gave it to her so she could sell it. The sister had the bill of sale for the machine, which was purchased in January 2020, from a dealer in this state. No manuals or other documentation.

A UCC search showed no liens against his name or the sister.

I operated it and it seemed OK, but certainly different than my tractor backhoe, so I could not really put it through its paces efficiently (learning curve).

I figured for the price, if I decided to purchase, the amount I would risking would not be a death blow to me worst case...

In the end, the deal breaker (along with the other concerns) was that I had great difficulty (in a couple hours on line) finding a source of parts, manuals, or even a dealer anywhere close by.

So I declined to purchase the excavator. I concluded I really should buy a name brand that has parts/manuals easily available and dealers close by, just in case.

What would you have done?

You provided many good reasons to walk away - and for me, clear title is non-negotiable and reason alone to walk away.

 

[NCL4701]

I think you made a good call regardless of price.

I deal with stolen farm and construction equipment in my job. Not as a thief or buyer but in a different role. No way I would have considered buying it even if I lived next door to a dealer that stocked every part on it. As you know, there is no title on these things like on road vehicles have, so if there is anything at all wanky in the provenance of ownership it would be a no go for me. Mere possession of stolen goods is a crime here (don’t know if it is in PA). Might not get prosecuted for it if law enforcement views you as a victim, but I wouldn’t want to lose the money or leave my criminal record up to the prosecutorial discretion of the local District Attorney.

 

[Henro]

You provided many good reasons to walk away - and for me, clear title is non-negotiable and reason alone to walk away.

The problem is, which does concern me, is there is no title for a tractor or excavator, just a bill of sale. Never got more than a bill of sale when I bought both my tractors new.

Best we can hope for is a bill of sale, notarized, on purchase, I think. Along with a copy/photo of the sellers drivers license I guess. Might be wise to pay a company that specializes in checking the history of equipment and sellers.

I think you made a good call regardless of price.

I deal with stolen farm and construction equipment in my job. Not as a thief or buyer but in a different role. No way I would have considered buying it even if I lived next door to a dealer that stocked every part on it. As you know, there is no title on these things like on road vehicles have, so if there is anything at all wanky in the provenance of ownership it would be a no go for me. Mere possession of stolen goods is a crime here (don’t know if it is in PA). Might not get prosecuted for it if law enforcement views you as a victim, but I wouldn’t want to lose the money or leave my criminal record up to the prosecutorial discretion of the local District Attorney.

I am a novice at this, but I wonder how does one EVER know when he buys something used that it has not been stolen? I would really like to know more about this as I do want to buy a used mini excavator when I find the right one. Would the original bill of sale from the dealer in PA, dated January 2020 have not been enough?

Thinking further, how would I prove to someone buying one of my tractors that it was not stolen, other than showing the bill of sale I received on purchase? Of course, I could have forged that bill of sale I suppose. Where does it end?

Does one just cross his fingers and hope for the best?

Having an analytical personality, it seems like that is how it works in the end...

 

[Tornado]

call me a wierdo, but I woulda walked as soon as I heard the owner was in jail and ih ad to deal with the sister and blah blah. Just too much "stuff" for me lol Im super super picky with used stuff

 

[MNVikingsGuy]

The problem is, which does concern me, is there is no title for a tractor or excavator,

I was using the term more generically, should have put it in quotes. There are all kinds of things that are bought and sold without title, and even things with title that aren't as clear as you might think if there was an actual problem. I just don't buy expensive things when I don't have confidence in the seller and in the proper "providence" of the item.

 

[NHSleddog]

Like strange food, any deal should pass the smell test and this one failed at the first step (no owner present).

You can have a signature/notarized/BOS/license picture etc. If it is stolen and you have possession of it, you will be on the hook.

In all my years buying/selling I have only had a few "odd" situations that caused me to walk. At the same time I have avoided dozens of possible scams with the simple "smell test" without ever leaving the house.

 

[Henro]

Like strange food, any deal should pass the smell test and this one failed at the first step (no owner present).

You can have a signature/notarized/BOS/license picture etc. If it is stolen and you have possession of it, you will be on the hook.

In all my years buying/selling I have only had a few "odd" situations that caused me to walk. At the same time I have avoided dozens of possible scams with the simple "smell test" without ever leaving the house.

Just trying to learn. Does a Bill of Sale from a dealer/corporate seller in the same state, in the current year, have no value at all?

Only asking because I am trying to fully understand how to protect myself...in future transactions.

 

[ZTMAN]

If I was buying used, I would want to see a chain of ownership, i.e. Purchase docs from dealer in the sellers name, and if not the original owner, a bill of sale from / to each subsequent seller/ purchaser.
And as you are aware, a UCC search.

 

[NHSleddog]

Just trying to learn. Does a Bill of Sale from a dealer/corporate seller in the same state, in the current year, have no value at all?

Only asking because I am trying to fully understand how to protect myself...in future transactions.

I am not a lawyer so I would be the wrong guy to ask. I do know dealers have been screwed on trade-ins before.

You buy from a dealer and it turns out it was stolen, I would not see a judge throwing you in jail however we live in strange times. Depending on the state you could still be out the money though.

I wouldn't worry about it at all in my state (NH) and honestly the tone here in this thread is way more cautious than I am. I buy and sell all the time, it is a hobby of mine.

 

[NCL4701]

Checking UCC for liens (which you did) is great. That at least gives you some reasonable confidence there’s no outstanding lien and that’s very important.

The other question, “Is it stolen?” You need the serial number. Every tractor or piece of equipment has a serial number unless it’s REALLY old (like Rumley Oil Pull old).

Getting the serial number is usually the only challenge if there’s any challenge. It may be on a sticker, embossed metal plate that’s riveted on, and usually stamped on the machine or cast in raised characters.

If it’s on a sticker, keep looking. There are several websites that provide templates for creating ID stickers for cars, trucks, and equipment that look like the originals, allegedly for repair shops that legitimately need to replace damaged stickers.

If it’s on an embossed plate that’s riveted on that’s much better so long as it looks like it is original, has patina consistent with the rest of the machine, is undamaged, and the rivets don’t appear to have been messed with.

Ideally find the serial number that’s stamped or cast.

A dealer and/or some internet research on the specific model should be able to help you determine the location if you don’t know. And don’t just “find a number”. Often the engine block and transmission will have numbers but they may be the number for that part, not the serial number for the tractor. Many of the raised numbers cast into the block and transmission are part numbers or serial numbers for the engine/transmission but not the tractor. On most relatively modern tractors with the rear axle/transmission/subframe construction it will be stamped on one of the frame rails. For other equipment such as excavators it could be in a variety of places but it’s always (in my experience) somewhere that’s a major part of the structure that would almost never be replaced in even a major rebuild.

If the serial number isn’t where it’s supposed to be per the dealer and you can’t find it or it appears altered, walk away from it. Good chance it’s been changed or removed and there’s no legitimate reason to change or remove it. It should match the paperwork associated with the tractor. If it doesn’t, walk away from it. If the seller is being too pushy and not wanting to allow you any time to complete reasonable due diligence (which shouldn’t take long), walk away. If they try to continually distract keep you from finding the serial number, get out of there as fast as you can.

If everything checks out otherwise, before you buy, call your local sheriff/police department, tell them what you’re doing, and ask them to check to make sure It isn’t listed as stolen. Unless they’re a bunch of jerks, they’ll run the serial number for you to see if it has ever been reported stolen. When people report equipment to law enforcement as stolen and they have a serial number, the serial number is entered into a database so in theory (and most of the time in practice) it will show up as stolen. That’s not a 100% guarantee it isn’t stolen but: 1) highly likely it isn’t; 2) if it is highly unlikely it would ever be identified as stolen because it isn’t in the database.

If you ask your dealer, I think you’d find they follow a similar process when taking in trades and buying used equipment. 1) check UCC; 2) check with law enforcement.

You can also purchase from a dealer or auction house to provide a layer of insulation for yourself as that due diligence should have been done already by the dealer or auction house and gives you a deep pocket to turn to in the unlikely chance something goes bad.

In the scenario you described even if everything you were told is true, the owner is in jail and not a direct participant in the transaction. Unless his sister has a valid Power of Attorney sufficient to grant her authority to sell the excavator on his behalf and provides you a copy to keep with the bill of sale, she doesn’t have the legal authority to sell it so regardless of what bill of sale she signs it’s all based on an alleged handshake deal between the incarcerated owner and his sister. I believe the technical legal term for such a transaction is “effing stupid”.

I know the OP was about a Terex excavator but since this is a Kubota forum I’ll say the serial number on most if not all newer Kubota tractors is on the right front frame rail. If I can find a couple of photos I’ll post some examples of what I’m referring to on the stampings and stickers.

 

[PaulL]

I like the little Takeuchi excavators. And of course Kubotas. 1.6t is a nice size range. The zero swing is nice, but personally I figure you can learn not to swing the rear into things.

As for this deal. I wouldn't have bought it, but because of the parts situation. I'd want a name brand. The brother in jail and sister selling it thing - dodgy, but not impossible that I 'd buy it, depending on how I felt when talking to the sister. If it was genuinely dodgy their story wouldn't be "my brother is in jail", it'd be "he's out of town on business". I think there's points for honesty in these things.

 

[NCL4701]

A
A few photos of my tractor. The V number is stamped on the transmission. That’s the serial number for the transmission, NOT the tractor. The thing with the bar codes is pretty easily faked and replaced if you know where to go to get it or spend the time to make replacements yourself which would be more of a professional theft ring thing as opposed to some meth head stealing grandpa’s tractor. The thing that says Kubota on it is a lot harder to duplicate and although it’s kind of hard to see, the serial number is stamped on the frame rail right above the Kubota sticker.

I’m aware that was a long post and I somewhat apologize for that. It isn’t really hard or dangerous to buy from an individual. If I was buying from my brother I probably wouldn’t check anything.

Otherwise:
1) Get the serial number
2) Check UCC
3) Call local law enforcement and have them run the serial number to confirm not stolen
4) Check with your little voice to make sure it’s not screaming at you to run.
5) Buy
6) Enjoy

Edit. Everything I said about UCC and law enforcement database is for the U.S. Just got to thinking the forum isn’t limited to U.S. so not applicable to all.

 

[random]

Serial number I can maybe see, but bill of sale etc. seems it could be difficult when dealing with old equipment, like a Farmall A. How would you handle ensuring something like that isn't stolen?

 

[random]

And yeah, I think I would have walked away about at the "in jail, deal with sister" part too

 

[NCL4701]

Serial number I can maybe see, but bill of sale etc. seems it could be difficult when dealing with old equipment, like a Farmall A. How would you handle ensuring something like that isn't stolen?

First clue would be it’s a Farmall A. Unless it’s a museum quality restoration why would anyone steal a Farmall A? (Just kidding. There’s a H in the stall right beside my Kubota.)

Seriously, if you can find the serial number, law enforcement checking it against NCIC database is still about the best you can do. Past that, you have to be a little cautious and trust your gut.

 

[torch]

This thread reminds me of a news item from 25 or so years ago. A fellow was charged with possession of stolen goods as the car he was driving was stolen.

He had bought it at a police auction. It had been impounded for whatever reason, and never claimed, for obvious reasons.

Some days you just can't win.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I like the little Takeuchi excavators. And of course Kubotas. 1.6t is a nice size range. The zero swing is nice, but personally I figure you can learn not to swing the rear into things.

As for this deal. I wouldn't have bought it, but because of the parts situation. I'd want a name brand. The brother in jail and sister selling it thing - dodgy, but not impossible that I 'd buy it, depending on how I felt when talking to the sister. If it was genuinely dodgy their story wouldn't be "my brother is in jail", it'd be "he's out of town on business". I think there's points for honesty in these things.

My only choices or a Yanmar.

 

[NHSleddog]

This thread reminds me of a news item from 25 or so years ago. A fellow was charged with possession of stolen goods as the car he was driving was stolen.

He had bought it at a police auction. It had been impounded for whatever reason, and never claimed, for obvious reasons.

Some days you just can't win.

In NH we have police auctions every year. It is the one time you will be most likely purchasing (previously) stolen goods without serial numbers. And its all legit.