FEL Downpressure great, lift weak?

[poconoguy17]

Using the B6000DT w/ B219 FEL today noticed some weird behavior. The lift is incredibly weak and has trouble lift 1/2 bucket of loose soil. However, the down pressure is 100% and I was able to backblade the entire driveway (1/2 mile uphill) .

Fluid is good, No crazy sounds. Control valve operate normally , float works. Screen is clean and fluid is new NAPA UTF/Hydro.

Thoughts? Downpressure has zero problem lifting the tractor 8" and curling the bucket down gets the front tires free spinning.

 

[Dave_eng]

Using the B6000DT w/ B219 FEL today noticed some weird behavior. The lift is incredibly weak and has trouble lift 1/2 bucket of loose soil. However, the down pressure is 100% and I was able to backblade the entire driveway (1/2 mile uphill) .

Fluid is good, No crazy sounds. Control valve operate normally , float works. Screen is clean and fluid is new NAPA UTF/Hydro.

Thoughts? Downpressure has zero problem lifting the tractor 8" and curling the bucket down gets the front tires free spinning.

To identify where the problem originates, swap the two boom cylinder hoses and see if the problem moves.

If it does then the problem is in the loader valve.

Post a photo of your loader valve please.

Dave

 

[poconoguy17]

To identify where the problem originates, swap the two boom cylinder hoses and see if the problem moves.

If it does then the problem is in the loader valve.

Post a photo of your loader valve please.

Dave

Swapping lines is a pain in the butt, no quick disconnect so will have to wait till morning. I wouldnt think its the valve though as downpressure on all is very strong

 

[Dave_eng]

View attachment 48009

Swapping lines is a pain in the butt, no quick disconnect so will have to wait till morning. I wouldnt think its the valve though as downpressure on all is very strong

Do not bother to change any hoses.

What strikes my eye is this............

The tractor is just sitting with both valves in their neutral position.

Look at the length difference in polished spool surface showing near the base of the two valve handles.

It looks like the boom spool is less out than the bucket spool.

Further, the bucket control lever is curved backwards.

Could the travel of the boom spool be limited in the lift position thus weakening the amount of lift.

Dave

 

[poconoguy17]

Do not bother to change any hoses.

What strikes my eye is this............

The tractor is just sitting with both valves in their neutral position.

Look at the length difference in polished spool surface showing near the base of the two valve handles.

It looks like the boom spool is less out than the bucket spool.

Further, the bucket control lever is curved backwards.

Could the travel of the boom spool be limited in the lift position thus weakening the amount of lift.

Dave

The boom (left valve) has a float when it is fully pushed forward, I think that is why it is out slightly more. The bucket (right valve) is bent and operates fine.

The machine struggles curling the bucket under weight and lifting the loader under weight. Both can exert quite a lot of force in the opposite direction for down pressure, to the point lifting the machine completely off and no loss of pressure.

 

[dvcochran]

Dave_eng, with all the fresh paint on the machine I wondered if the difference in shiny shaft is simply paint. The one valve having a float position also makes sense.
I have an old International 454 with a 2250 loader that has a very similar symptom on and off. Good down pressure but slow going up. It will eventually make power but very slowly. There is a multi-control valve that is very easy to get stuck from any contaminant in the system. You can tell it is affecting flow but not pressure because you can tach the engine up a good bit and it is better.
I do know if his Kubota has a similar type of valve but it does sound like something stuck in the hydraulic circuit.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Love the 5 gallon finish....

 

[poconoguy17]

Love the 5 gallon finish....

5 gallon finish?

 

[Dave_eng]

The boom (left valve) has a float when it is fully pushed forward, I think that is why it is out slightly more. The bucket (right valve) is bent and operates fine.

The machine struggles curling the bucket under weight and lifting the loader under weight. Both can exert quite a lot of force in the opposite direction for down pressure, to the point lifting the machine completely off and no loss of pressure.

If you feel the difference is the spools is not significant then it is time to Tee a pressure gauge into the lift line for the boom to see what is going on.

A 0-3,000 psi gauge costing less than $30 and some fittings to match your new hoses.

Noticing that that the hoses, except the return to TANK one have been replaced recently, is this performance problem recent?

With the loader having its own pump and reservoir, there are few places for an obstruction to occur.

Dave

 

[poconoguy17]

If you feel the difference is the spools is not significant then it is time to Tee a pressure gauge into the lift line for the boom to see what is going on.

A 0-3,000 psi gauge costing less than $30 and some fittings to match your new hoses.

Noticing that that the hoses, except the return to TANK one have been replaced recently, is this performance problem recent?

With the loader having its own pump and reservoir, there are few places for an obstruction to occur.

Dave

Thank you for all the advice and help Dave & others.

I replaced the return line also about 2 weeks ago. And actually, this morning replaced the high pressure out from the pump to the control valve inlet because my positive battery lead broke off the starter and arc'd creating a very pretty welding arc against the frame and melted a hole in the previous line. I replaced the damaged *new* 72" line that I had routed under the tractor with *new* 60" I had on hand and routed it between the fuel tank and firewall under the hood.

All the lines are free of kinks, tight bends or damage.

Haven't noticed any issues in the fluid, the screen is clean , temperature seems normal. I guess piping in a T and reading pressures is my next step Go figure ....... replace everything and "NOW" it has a lift issue suddenly....

What makes it odd is that down force is exceptional (both boom and bucket) and upward movement is lacking lift on both boom and bucket... I would think any obstruction in the circuit should have equal effect in either direction, yet downforce on each spool operates with power.

 

[Palmettokat]

I am assuming you replaced one hose at the time and if so then no likely there was a mistake in connecting them. I have gotten hoses mixed on my two rear remotes before and had odd operation like you are experiencing. Was not on a loader but a boom mower. I had one hose for each cylinder on two different valves. It was odd for one cylinder operated rather normal and the other did not. Just for laughs follow the hoses to the cylinders to see if that could have happened.

Also something I had to happen with brake lines is not probably an issue here but had a flexible brake line the inside of failed and was not allowing the fluid flow bake when the pedal was release. It did have some age on it. But not impossible you could have a damaged hose or trash in the up hose.

Is it possible one of your lift cylinders has failed on the lift and not lifting as it should?

 

[dvcochran]

Since the problem is on both lift and curl is it possible the supply and return to the valve block are swapped? To isolate, you could cap off one valve and lines from it. Then double check and make sure the lines are not swapped somewhere and test one circuit at a time.
It really helps to use different colored tape or markers or numbered stickers on each line to confirm each end is hooked up right. Two lines come from each valve and Tee on the loader frame.
Like Palmettokat said, if any one line is swapped it will cause strange things to happen.
If your attachments pin to the loader so that the curl cylinders are free of each other you could activate the curl with no attachment and at least check to see that the cylinders are stroking in the same direction. A quick test if no attachments hooked up.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Double check that you have not swapped lines off the valve to the cylinders.

 

[poconoguy17]

Would anyone have pics of the correct plumbing from the control valve to cylinders for a B-219 loader?

Found this diagram and verified all lines are correctly plumbed in.

Upon further inspection of the bottom half, no they are not , and no they were not since I bought it. The lower portion is all jacked up lol

Ughhhh driving me crazy.... if looking at the order of the steel bent lines its matches. but the position placements do not correspond to where the connections are. Basically steel line #1 is top and steel line #4 is bottom.... if that is the way I read it all lines are correct.

All common tie-in's on the lower steel correspond to the same tie-in per cylinder. Lower bucket cylinder is shared by both, upper bucket cylinder shared by both, lower boom cylinder shared by both , upper boom cylinder shared by both and the top side to control valve matches A->A, B->B , C->C and D->D.

So Now I am thinking either obstruction, bad hydro belt (less likely since down pressure is great), bad seals on the business end of the cylinders (lower seals?) or failing janky pump?

 

[Henro]

Would anyone have pics of the correct plumbing from the control valve to cylinders for a B-219 loader?

Found this diagram and verified all lines are correctly plumbed in.

Upon further inspection of the bottom half, no they are not , and no they were not since I bought it. The lower portion is all jacked up lol

Ughhhh driving me crazy.... if looking at the order of the steel bent lines its matches. but the position placements do not correspond to where the connections are. Basically steel line #1 is top and steel line #4 is bottom.... if that is the way I read it all lines are correct.

All common tie-in's on the lower steel correspond to the same tie-in per cylinder. Lower bucket cylinder is shared by both, upper bucket cylinder shared by both, lower boom cylinder shared by both , upper boom cylinder shared by both and the top side to control valve matches A->A, B->B , C->C and D->D.

So Now I am thinking either obstruction, bad hydro belt (less likely since down pressure is great), bad seals on the business end of the cylinders (lower seals?) or failing janky pump?

I like Dave`s idea of swapping the hoses and seeing if the issue reverses.

Not sure why he changed his mind and said not to do that.

Seems like a logical troubleshooting step and one I would try.

 

[Dave_eng]

I like Dave`s idea of swapping the hoses and seeing if the issue reverses.

Not sure why he changed his mind and said not to do that.

Seems like a logical troubleshooting step and one I would try.

I changed my mind on hose swapping when I noticed the two valve spools had different lengths coming out the end of the valve block.

To me it was a clue but to the owner not so.

This lead me to my next suggestion of Tee'ing in a pressure gauge on the lift line.

Dave

 

[poconoguy17]

I changed my mind on hose swapping when I noticed the two valve spools had different lengths coming out the end of the valve block.

To me it was a clue but to the owner not so.

This lead me to my next suggestion of Tee'ing in a pressure gauge on the lift line.

Dave

Thank you, Dave. Today I did verify correct hose and line routing via schematic match from the original manual for the B-219 in a post above. All cylinders match in the common line to upper / lower chambers of each cylinder and back up to the control valve.

 

[poconoguy17]

I like Dave`s idea of swapping the hoses and seeing if the issue reverses.

Not sure why he changed his mind and said not to do that.

Seems like a logical troubleshooting step and one I would try.

I would worry that swapping lines after verifying the schematic would risk doing more damage to the possibly failing pump?

 

[Tire Biter]

Maybe the relief valve is weak? It doesn’t take much to lift the front of the tractor up, but it takes more pressure to lift a loaded bucket.

 

[Tire Biter]

5 gallon finish?

He means the five gallon bucket of paint finish.