Busted PTO seal B7100D

[chknscratch]

I used my 48" sidewinder bush hog as my first pto drive implement on my new to me tractor. I was running it in PTO drive 1 and it seemed awfully slow and quiet. I put it in PTO 2 and it really began to shake and wobble within only 5-10 seconds, so I put it in neutral and got it to N to stop it. I put it back in 1 after it came to a stop and cut about 250 ft with a couple turns/turnarounds. I notices a trail of fluid and the neighbor came over and said I had a busted seal as I had just realized it and was still on the tractor.

I did a search and think I can easily replace it, but I have a couple questions. Is there a good chance I damages the bearing in the PTO housing just inside the case? I went ahead and ordered it since it was cheap enough from the dealership. My B7100 gear drive does not have the ring with the intentions to pop it out from outside. The neighbor also said there was water in my fluid. At this point I plan to train off what is left and open up the back plate. I will clean it up if I see any metal bits. And put new fluid in it. Is there another part(s) I should be mindful of when looking in there and should I just replace any parts because I am in there. It is a 33 yo tractor with at least 1200 hrs and the meter doesn't work as of now. I assume it has been kept in good, but minimal cost care condition. It is faded like it has seen more days outside than in.

Thanks for any input!

 

[chknscratch]

Also lady in parts said there is no gasket for mine for the backplate, but I could sworn I had seen one in the shop manual parts diagram. Anyone not have a gasket in theirs?

 

[cb750k8]

I used gasget paper (from a local motor shop and cut the paper to shape) and gasket seal compound on mine and it has worked great. Oil seal is available on internet.
Bearings ( if needed) are standard bearings and also available on internet. You may need a pullers to pull off old bearings.

Cheers.

 

[chknscratch]

Thanks CB. I am going to be within about 1 mile of the dealership that is 25 miles away tomorrow morning, so I went ahead and confirmed they could have the parts at their location. The PTO seal was 5.28 and the bearing was 17.45, doesn't seem too bad for dealership prices. Since I will be doing a flush and putting in new transmission fluid, I will have to decide to buy that at the dealership or get it at a parts store for cheaper I would imagine.

 

[chknscratch]

I pulled off the back plate and removed the plate and pto shaft as I was trying to take it apart. My plate didn't have the notches to easily remove the PTO oil seal from the outside. Now that I am putting it back together and studying the parts diagram I don't recall the bolt and three washers that go on the opposite end of the PTO shaft that sticks out of the tractor. Is it possible the last person to work on this left these parts out? It almost seems that the shaft is held in place by a bearing at each end and with the back plate bolted in place, there is no where for it to go. I guess if I need to open it up to look for these parts I should go in from the top based on the diagrams. Any thoughts?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Yes you need the bolt and washers, without it there is nothing holding the shaft in!
The bearings can not hold the shaft in by them selves.

 

[chknscratch]

So the shaft shouldn't have just come loose and fallen out when I took the back plate off? Would you suspect the bolt and washers are in the rear transmission chamber and wouldn't have made their way into another section of the transmission?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

If it came apart while it was assembled it should be laying in the bottom of the rear end, it might take some work to get to it.

 

[chknscratch]

If I am an average mechanic with an engineering degree and decent understanding of machines should this be doable? The thought of opening the transmission to any degree seems intimidating, but if I am simply removing a cover and reaching for bolts in the bottom of a housing with a magnet, a light and a mirror, it seems like I could do it. The lift for the rear implement looks like it is bolted into what I will be removing. Does that have to come off in order to have enough room to work or can it stay in place? I think removing the sheet metal and maybe even the tires will be in order.

The good news is I wanted to do all this after seeing several posts here when researching my tractor. I had only hoped it was after I got a summer garden in and didn't need it! Would be nice to deep clean and paint it, we will see how the weather plays out this week.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

If I am an average mechanic with an engineering degree.

That's going to work against you!

If when you remove the rear cover that holds all the PTO parts and gears into the rear end, are you able to "fish" around in the bottom of the rear end?
Is it even possible for the bolt to fall directly into the rear end or should the bolt and washers end up in the rear cover area?
Is it possible that they were just left out on a previous repair?

If you can't get access to the bottom of the rear end pulling the rear cover, you will have to decide if you want to pull off an axle assembly or the top of the three point to gain any access to the bottom of the rear end.
Pulling a cover off of an axle assembly is a fair amount of work and will still only give you limited access to where you need to be, pulling off the top of the three point will give you a lot more room to work, but you still will be fighting in limited space.

 

[chknscratch]

Thanks, although it was a civil engineering degree, but I made the rounds through engineering classes!

I am not quite sure if you are restating my questions or posing them back at me...? I would think it would be tight, but with relatively young eyes and some patience, I think I could fish out the bolt if needed. I am worried the pressures in the fluid may allow a washer or bolt to end up between gears and cost me big time. Should that be a concern? I don't know if the washers will be there, when I look at the end of my PTO shaft that was in the tractor, I see a imprint/discoloration of a hex head, not a circle, like there were washers in place. Maybe the last person lost the washers and that is why the bolt came out. The way each of the bearings couplings on each end of the PTO are angled in toward the center of the shaft, seems like it actually all could be held together by just bolting the back plate on if I can stack the parts as I put it back together. Thanks for your advice.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Question 1:
With the rear cover off, can you see into the rear end? {I have not had my cover off so I don't know what it looks like}?

Question 2:
If the bolt/washers were to have just come off could they have fallen inside the rear end, or should they have fallen into the area of the rear cover area with no way to get to the rear end {if so I would think they just got forgotten to be reinstalled on a previous repair attempt}?

Yes I would totally agree find them and get them out if they are in there, getting a loose bolt or washer in a gear set makes a big mess!

I personally (if you can't get access from the rear cover) would pull the top 3 point cover and piston off because it will give you the most working room to go fishing for the bolt and washers.
A snake camera might come in real handy for this operation! I always look for "valid" reasons to buy new tools!

 

[chknscratch]

Thanks, now I understand.

A1: It appears that once you take the top plate that is the frame for the seat and the 3 pt lift, then it is an open box. My apologies, I thought you had done that before and knew yourself. I have no idea for sure, just reading drawings.

A2: From my judgment, it would have most likely fallen off in the main rear chamber, that has the rear axle through it. When I unbolted the rear plate, the top pto shaft went floppy and the gear and collar basically fell off in my hands, it seemed weird, but nothing looked broken, although I must not have noticed the missing washers and bolts at that time.

You read my mind about the camera, I was looking at those the other day from harbor freight. If there was ever a time to buy one, I think this might be a good one!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Question 1, was in regard to the rear PTO shaft cover,

With the top (3 point piston and rockshaft cover) off of the rear end your going to get the best access that I could think to see what you can see!

 

[Rob]

Having messed around a fair bit in this area of b series machines this may not be as easy as it may sound.
If any parts have dropped into the bottom of the diff housing they will not be easy to see as there will be a small amount of oil left in the bottom that wont drain out and may well obscure seeing any small parts. another issue is that in your parts diagram it does'nt show the diff parts which are in the housing which will also block easy access to the bottom of the casing.
The PTO output shaft slides into the rear casing and meshes with the pto drive shaft , the pto cover plate is the retaining part.
your output shaft should come out with all parts on the shaft and go back the same way, if not there is a problem....
if you take the lid of the top and ensure all oil and sediment is removed you may see any parts, but you'll need a telescopic magnet tool or grab to extract them.

been there, done it, as they say.

good luck.

 

[chknscratch]

Thanks Rob. I found a local tractor mechanic who has an extremely fair rate and sounds like an honest guy coming over in the next couple days. He seemed to make it sound like it wouldn't take him long, no matter the case and we talked about what I might expect to pay. I plan to learn from him and hopefully not with him, but he sounded well versed in orange tractors. Now if I can have a spare bolt and washer in hand by the time he gets here, I would be in good shape!

 

[chknscratch]

Just to give a closure to this thread, I have gotten the PTO replaced.

I had gotten it all apart and the PTO shaft just fell out in my hands when the back plate finally broke loose from its seated position. The bearing at the end of the PTO shaft fell out and its track remained in the rear wall of the transmission/rear differential. I then compared the parts diagram and realized it was in fact missing a couple of washers and a bolt. The mechanic was able to get by after about 10 days, with intentions of taking the top of to inspect for the bolt. He came out and started unbolting the top and then said he had a lot of luck with using a magnet. So he fished for a while, but no metal bits or pieces.

He said he thought it would be heavy enough that it would be safe to leave in place. He put the PTO shaft back together which would have taken me a while. He also told me the old PTO shafts are considered gold in their shop, because they are one of the strongest metals anyone has ever come across. He said they grind them down if they ever get one and use it as a tool. He got the back plate back on and it all sounded very smooth.

My neighbor recommended washing out the transmission with Kerosene. He was trying to help and there was a mixup and he forgot to drain the Kerosene rear differential plugs. He only got about 8 quarts of transmission fluid before it was completely full to the cap, then he realized his mistake. He said it would be good for it, so it has probably worked about 3 hrs, lightly, and I plan to drain again this evening to work on the clutch and refill with 100% transmission fluid.