4 Vs. 3 Cylinder Diesel

WS6Man

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L3800
Feb 11, 2013
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Norwalk, OH, Erie
Hello group, I am in the market for a B series tractor and noticed the 2920 has a 3 cylinder and the 3200 has a 4. I know the 3's reputation for quality, but I wanted to ask the group their opinion on the pro/con of the 4 cylinder.

Thanks in advance,

Steven
 

motorhead

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2009 B3200, 2007 Dodge/Cummins powered Ram 2500 395hp
May 17, 2012
441
34
28
Atascadero
From what I have read the odd cyl diesels run smoother with more torque.
He is right. I have a B3200 with the V1505 four cylinder and it has more vibration than the three cylinder. If you look at the bigger L series tractors you will notice that most of them have large 3 cylinder engines in them.

Before I bought my USED B3200, I was looking at NEW tractors and was going to buy the B2920 because of the smoother engine. My B3200 has the vibration at 2000-2100 rpm. Still a nice tractor. (B3200)

I have a good old Mercedes 240D 4 cylinder diesel and it has the even cylinder diesel vibration. We owned a 5 cylinder Mercedes turbo diesel wagon for several years and it was very smooth.

Check what options you want in each of the tractors. If the B2920 suits your needs I would preferably go with the B2920. The 3 hp difference isn't going to matter much. The B2920 does have a smaller front loader weight capacity.
 

tiredguy

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B3030 HSTC,B2781 51" front mounted snowblower,60" MMM
Jan 21, 2010
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northern lower Michigan
I've got a B3030 with the 30hp 4 cylinder and it's got plenty of power and loves to drink plenty of diesel fuel too. My cousin has a 29hp 3 cylinder and I think it uses far less fuel than mine does.
Of course I've got a 57hp Belarus that while the two of us spend the day brush hogging him with a 5' on his and me with the 7', and at the end of a 9 hour day we both used nearly the identical amount of fuel. The B3030 uses a lot more because of the HST versus the gear driven transmissions on the other tractors and most people never take that into account when comparing.
I would even want a non HST tractor for mowing and snow blowing or much of anything else around the yard because the HST is far easier to manuver around things that might get in the way.

Don't let the difference in number of cylinders be the deciding factor in which tractor you choose, pick the one that best fits your needs and feels "right" when you're operating it. Afterall it's a KUBOTA and that's "enough said" ;-)
Al
 

KubotaTech

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None- I get to play with everyone elses stuff
Apr 1, 2010
185
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PA
The 3200 is slightly wider, longer and more powerful than the 2920. However the 2920 is smoother running. The dashes are slightly different and the ignition key placement is different. You may or may not be able to mount the same attachments so be sure of what you are getting before you pick the tractor. A 72 inch MM Mower is available for the 32000 but I dont think you can get it for the 2920. Loader capacity is higher on the 3200 and is wider as well. A few smaller differences include headlight hood and side panels. The 3200 has engine vibrations you will feel in the floor and steering wheel. If it is big enough and suits you, I would get a 2920.
 

Forge

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B7800, Woods LS84 FEL, MMM RC72
Dec 16, 2012
47
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6
Pottstown
Car manufacturers are introducing 3 cylinder engines in their small cars because they are cheaper, smaller and more economical. They can also be mounted transversely. They have also managed to smooth them out. Don't quite understand the comments here that there is less vibration because 3 cycles are inherently unbalanced. Most Kubota's over 30hp have 4 cylinder engines. The exceptions being the smaller L models. Again built to be competitively priced in their segment.
 

pmhowe

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L4240, Ford 8N, Kioti CK 2610
Jun 23, 2012
117
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16
Banner Elk NC
I have an L4240, which has the four cylinder engine. I had an L2550, which had the three cylinder engine. My first impression when getting the L4240 was that it ran more smoothly than the L2550. It is not quite an apples-to-apples comparison, as the L4240 is much bigger and much newer. However, prior to buying the L4240, I looked at several different tractors, and several different brands. I found no significant difference in smoothness between the new three cylinder tractors and new four cylinder tractors.
 

Bluegill

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L3750DT Shuttle, L3800DT FEL both
Jan 11, 2012
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Success Missouri
All these modern diesels are plenty smooth running. But our old L3750 has a 5 cyl and it is by far the smoothest diesel engine I've been around.
 

hodge

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John Deere 790 John Deere 310 backhoe Bobcat 743
Nov 19, 2010
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I have a B7100 with a 3 cylinder, and a Bobcat 743 with a V1702 4 cylinder. I can't say that I have noticed any vibration in the 1702. I am sure that there are conditions which add to the cause. The NH3930 that dad has is a 3 cylinder, which runs smooth. My 6BT cummins runs smooth, but loud. My daughter's 4 cylinder Jetta runs smooth. I am just going through the list- I have heard that odd cylinder diesels runs smoother, but I haven't experienced it. Mind you, I'm not saying it isn't true. I would imagine that there are other factors besides the cylinder count that leads to the vibration,though- that would be my guess.
 

kuboman

Member
Dec 6, 2009
725
6
16
Canada
The newer 03 series 4 cylinders have counter balance shafts and the 4's are very smooth. The 05 series in the B's have no balance shafts and they do have some vibration. Like others have said buy the one the suits you the best. I have the B3200 and although it has some vibration I am happy with it because of the slightly larger frame and hp.
 

dmanlyr

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L3200, Hustler Super Z
May 30, 2012
330
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Graham, WA
Car manufacturers are introducing 3 cylinder engines in their small cars because they are cheaper, smaller and more economical. They can also be mounted transversely. They have also managed to smooth them out. Don't quite understand the comments here that there is less vibration because 3 cycles are inherently unbalanced. Most Kubota's over 30hp have 4 cylinder engines. The exceptions being the smaller L models. Again built to be competitively priced in their segment.
It is a common misconception that a odd number of cylinders somehow means that the engine is inherently unbalanced. This is certainly not the case when comparing a 3 cyl and 4 cylinder in line engine.

Due to how the common 4 cylinder in line engine is built with paired cylingers, IE two rising and lowering at the same time, while one is on the compression stroke and one is on the exhaist stroke, there is a imbalance between the two rising cylinders, in that one is producing power whilst the other is mearly pushing out spent combustion products. This causes the crank to vibrate between the cylinders and is why it is now common to include a balance shaft on modern in line 4 cylinder engines. Some engine designs even have two balance shafts.

The three cylinder in line engine is therfore more balanced from a primary standpoint than the four cylinder inline with paired cylinders, in that you have three equally spaced power and exhaust strokes.

Which is why a three cylinder does not have that gutteral low harmonics that you feel more than hear with a unbalance shaft equipped inline four cylinder.

Food for thought.. David
 
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lsmurphy

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B7001
Oct 19, 2012
1,197
5
36
Parrrottsville TN
It is a common misconception that a odd number of cylinders somehow means that the engine is inherently unbalanced. This is certainly not the case when comparing a 3 cyl and 4 cylinder in line engine.

Due to how the common 4 cylinder in line engine is built with paired cylingers, IE two rising and lowering at the same time, while one is on the compression stroke and one is on the exhaist stroke, there is a imbalance between the two rising cylinders, in that one is producing power whilst the other is mearly pushing out spent combustion products. This causes the crank to vibrate between the cylinders and is why it is now common to include a balance shaft on modern in line 4 cylinder engines. Some engine designs even have two balance shafts.

The three cylinder in line engine is therfore more balanced from a primary standpoint than the four cylinder inline with paired cylinders, in that you have three equally spaced power and exhaust strokes.

Which is why a three cylinder does not have that gutteral low harmonics that you feel more than hear with a unbalance shaft equipped inline four cylinder.

Food for thought.. David
Yeah you got it........there is one cylinder on the power stroke off from the 180 degrees typical of 4 cylinders.
 

lsmurphy

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B7001
Oct 19, 2012
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Parrrottsville TN
Inline 5-cylinder engines


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Straight-five engine is not very common in motor industry. In the past 20 years, only Audi (2.2 and 2.3-litre), Honda (Acura TL), Volvo (2.0-litre, 2.3 turbo and 2.4-litre), Fiat group (2.0 and 2.4-litre Super Fire series) and Mercedes diesel adopted such design. However, straight-five engine has its own advantages. Firstly, it bridges the gap between 4 and 6-cylinder engines, thus may offer the best cylinder capacity for optimized efficiency; Secondly, compare with 4-cylinder engines, it saves one balancer shaft; Thirdly, compare with 6-cylinder engines, it is short enough to be fitted transversely into the engine compartment of front-wheel-drive cars, driving directly the inline gearbox. Lastly, it can be derived from a modular design consisting of 4 and 6-cylinder inline engines, not only saving development cost but also eliminating the investment of a new production line. Fiat, Mercedes and Volvo’s 5-pots, for example, are made as modular engines.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]The inline-5 engine fires once every 720° / 5 = 144° crank angle. As a result, the crankshaft design is as shown in below. Firing order is 1-3-5-4-2.[/SIZE][/FONT]



[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]My mathematical analysis proved that both its resultant first order force and second order force are balanced. Therefore it doesn’t need the twin-balancer shafts as a big 4-cylinder engine. However, it generates end-to-end vibration like 3-cylinder engines, because piston 1 is not in the same position as piston 5, and piston 2 is not in the same position as piston 4. Therefore both ends of the engine will vibrate up and down with respect to the engine center.[/SIZE][/FONT]
 

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motorhead

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2009 B3200, 2007 Dodge/Cummins powered Ram 2500 395hp
May 17, 2012
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Atascadero
Ismurphy.... NICE explanation! I have had 3 and 4 cylinder Kubotas and 4 and 5 cylinder Mercedes diesels. The ODD cylinder engines were ALWAYS smoother.
 

motorhead

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2009 B3200, 2007 Dodge/Cummins powered Ram 2500 395hp
May 17, 2012
441
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28
Atascadero
Ismurphy.... NICE explanation! I have had 3 and 4 cylinder Kubotas and 4 and 5 cylinder Mercedes diesels. The ODD cylinder engines were ALWAYS smoother.
 

DanDan

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BX1860, L2600DT
Sep 21, 2012
125
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SoCal
Hello group, I am in the market for a B series tractor and noticed the 2920 has a 3 cylinder and the 3200 has a 4. I know the 3's reputation for quality, but I wanted to ask the group their opinion on the pro/con of the 4 cylinder.
Apart from the fascinating discussion about the inherent balance/vibration of the 4cyl vs. 3cyl, where the vibration really matters is on your tractor.

Test drive the different models-- at working RPM's-- and see if it makes a difference to you.

Personally, I thought the vibration in the available 4cyl B3300SU's I tried was pretty awful. The 3cyl L3200 was smooth as silk by comparison.
 

pmhowe

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L4240, Ford 8N, Kioti CK 2610
Jun 23, 2012
117
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16
Banner Elk NC
"My mathematical analysis proved that both its resultant first order force and second order force are balanced. Therefore it doesn’t need the twin-balancer shafts as a big 4-cylinder engine. However, it generates end-to-end vibration like 3-cylinder engines, because piston 1 is not in the same position as piston 5, and piston 2 is not in the same position as piston 4. Therefore both ends of the engine will vibrate up and down with respect to the engine center."

I'm intrigued. Any chance of sharing your analysis, either on line or off line? I have no ax to grind; I'm just interested.

Thanks.

PMH
 

Stumpy

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L175
Dec 1, 2011
848
3
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NE Ohio
This is one of those topics I find interesting so I could go on about it for hours. I was going to save you guys from it but then Ismurphy posted his explanation and I can't help myself anymore so here we go.

Engine vibrations are have three primary sources. A 4 stroke engine only produces power every 180 degrees. The flywheel absorbs power during the power stroke and releases it helping the engine coast through the others. The more power strokes the smaller the amount of time the engine needs to coast, the smaller the required flywheel and the smoother the power delivery. Working a four cylinder hard you can feel the gaps in the power strokes, a V8 feels like butter, and a V12's power delivery is almost as smooth as an electric motor. It's also important that the firing orders be evenly spaced otherwise another vibration is generated, pull one spark plug wire from your car and see how smooth it is. A two cylinder should fire every 360 degrees, a 3 cylinder every 240 degrees, a four every 180 degrees, ect.

Just as important is the primary balance. These are the forces that occur in phase (at the same crank angle) as the crank throw. Picture a single cylinder engine. As the crank rotates clockwise from top dead center to 90 degrees there are two forces generated. One is the reaction force from the piston and rod moving down and the other is a vertical and horizontal force due to the downward and rightward motion of the crank throw. So the vibrations from an unbalanced single cylinder engine would be a circular force combined and up and down motion.

These forces would be severe in anything anything rotating faster than 100rpm or so. So the solution used since the days of steam is to put weights on the crankshaft opposite the crank throw. With these you can completely cancel out the force due to the crank throws and big ends. However the piston and rod are moving vertically and since the counterweights are rotating trying to fully balance the piston and rod would create a horizontal force of similar magnitude to the vertical one you just eliminated. Instead the crankshaft weights in single cylinder engines are a compromise, they're heavier than needed to balance the crankshaft but only partially balance the piston. Compared with an unbalanced engine the vibrations are much smaller but both are still present. This combined with the single power stroke causes single cylinder engines to be paint shakers.

Next is a two cylinder engine. These can be built in many configurations. We'll start with the 90 degree Vee Twin. This is two cylinders set at a 90 degree angle sharing a crank throw. The crankshaft weights can now fully balance both the piston forces and the crankshaft throws since the horizontal force that would otherwise be unbalanced is now balanced by the second piston. The engine can have almost perfect primary balance except for the fact that the cylinders are usually not perfectly inline with each other so there's a slight rocking motion. Unfortunately the firing order is uneven and fully balancing the pistons makes for a heavy crank so they tend to change speeds slower (most often used in motorcycles where this can be important).

Inline 2's can use either a 360 degree crank (both crank throws are at the same angle) or a 180 degree crank (crank throws opposite each other). The 360 degree crank has an even firing order but with both pistons moving up and down in unison it vibrates like two single cylinder engines coupled together. The advantage over a single cylinder then is the two power strokes smoothing out the power delivery. A 180 degree crank does not have an even firing order but since the pistons are moving opposite each they cancel out each others forces and the crank weights can be sized just to balance the crank throws and rod ends.

There's a problem though. Due to a quirk of kinematics the velocities of the two pistons moving opposite each other aren't exactly matched. One piston is always moving faster than the other and a secondary vertical vibration at twice the crankshaft speed is created. The effect is the vibration tried to rock the engine about a point between the two cylinders. This vibration usually isn't enough to be a problem at low rpms but as engine speeds increase the vibration gets worse.

Flat twins manage to avoid this problem. Their construction is like an inline twin with the cylinders and crank throws 180 degrees apart. Since the cylinders are opposite each other the pistons difference in piston velocities is perfectly matched. However it suffers from a rocking vibration because the cylinders aren't inline similar to the 90 degree Vee Twin. Flat fours share this problem but but any flat engine 6 cylinders and larger is in perfect balance.

Nearly all inline 3 cylinder engines use 3 evenly spaced crank throws, each throw is 120 degrees apart from the next. This causes an interesting effect. The vertical force generated by one piston exactly canceled out by the sum of the other two. With the first cylinder at bottom dead center, the second is 50 degrees from top dead center moving up, and the third is 50 degrees past top dead center moving down. As the second piston gets closer to top dead center it's force decreases. At the same time the first piston begins rising and the force it generates matches the decreased force from the 2nd and the increased force from the third. The result is nearly no secondary vibrations and almost perfect primary balance. The only unbalance comes from the fact that two pistons are moving up or down at the same time so the engine rocks from end to end slightly. Any engine with evenly space crank throws for each cylinder exhibits similar behavior. Inline 3, 5, and 7s, cross plane (American) V8s, Yamaha's cross plane craftshaft inline 4 but any inline engine with an odd number of cylinders will exhibit the rocking vibration.

Nearly all lnline four cylinder engines use a 180 degree crank (front two cylinder at same angle, back two opposite them) and behave exactly like a 180 degree crank inline twin. As mentioned above there are a few 4 cylinder engines with 90 degree (cross plane) cranks but these don't have an even firing order. An inline 6 behaves like two inline 3's bolted together and along with engines larger than an 5 cylinder have over lap in the firing order which helps make it even smoother. In the 6 the rocking motion is canceled out by the two 3 cylinder pairs so they are in perfect balance. The CBX1000 is so smooth you can set a quarter on the seat while it's idling and it won't move. A V12 is also in perfect balance because it's like two inline 6's bolted together in a 60 degree V.

The classic American V8 uses four crank throws with pairs of pistons sharing throws and behaves like 4 sets of 90 degree Vee Twins. It's in perfect balance and has an even firing order. It's only disadvantage is a heavy crankshaft and the firing order between banks is uneven (not a problem for balance but makes exhaust design interesting, this is also where the V8 rumble comes from). European and racing V8's still have pairs of cylinders sharing throws but they are now 180 degrees apart and behave like two inline 4s coupled together. They're used because they're lighter and exhaust design is simpler than their cross plane cousins. There are dozens of other interesting combinations and all have unique characteristics but those are the most common minus the V6 which is a complicated animal.

Nearly all of these vibrations can be targeted and balanced with balance shafts at the cost of increased complexity and weight. A balance shaft is simply a small shaft with an eccentric weight driven in phase with the crank and placed such that it cancels the desired vibration. My 450 Nighthawk motorcycle uses an inline twin with a 360 degree crankshaft and a single balance shaft behind the cylinders and above the crank. With an even firing order and the worst of the vibrations canceled by the balance shaft it's quite smooth even at 9000rpm. Balance shafts didn't start seeing common use til after the 50s when engine rpms (especially 4 cylinders) began increasing and consumers demanded increased engine smoothness. Today nearly all inline 4s use two balance shafts turning in opposite directions to cancel out the secondary vibrations and many other engines make use of them.

So looooooooooong story short a three cylinder will generally be a smoother than an inline 4 without balance shafts at speed despite the larger firing gap but the final product depends on a lot of things. Smoothness of combustion (direct injection diesels lose here), design rpm, how the engine is mounted, how well the production parts match the math and are balanced, a bunch of things. The Ford 3.3L inline 3 direct injection diesel used in the 4500 vibrates a fair bit at all rpms despite topping out at about 2000. The 2L inline 4 gas engine in the 8n is fairly smooth at most rpms and tops out at the same. So as interesting as that all is it's only one part of a complicated picture.

Sorry for the wall of text, I hope at least that was interesting to someone.
 
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lsmurphy

Active member

Equipment
B7001
Oct 19, 2012
1,197
5
36
Parrrottsville TN
"My mathematical analysis proved that both its resultant first order force and second order force are balanced. Therefore it doesn’t need the twin-balancer shafts as a big 4-cylinder engine. However, it generates end-to-end vibration like 3-cylinder engines, because piston 1 is not in the same position as piston 5, and piston 2 is not in the same position as piston 4. Therefore both ends of the engine will vibrate up and down with respect to the engine center."

I'm intrigued. Any chance of sharing your analysis, either on line or off line? I have no ax to grind; I'm just interested.

Thanks.

PMH


LOL.........I just copy and paste something quickly to support my statement above that.

I ain't that smart. :p