Rust Busters...

D2Cat · Sep 2, 2015

Ran across this file while looking for information on freeing up plungers on a Cat engine.

It's about 3 years old, but shouldn't matter.

I get the acetone in a qt. can at Wal Mart paint dept.

Machinist's Workshop MagT recently published some information on various penetrating oils. The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts.They are below. They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.

Penetrating oils ........... Average torque load to loosen

No Oil used ................... 516 pounds
WD-40 ..................... ... 238 pounds
PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF*-Acetone mix............53 pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test.

ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix.

*ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid.

bxray · Sep 2, 2015

Thanks for the info!

Wow, all that scientific engineering to create a formula and the shady tree mechanic mix works the best!
Well its off for atf and acetone and a spray bottle!

Ray

BravoXray · Sep 2, 2015

Just be really careful with acetone, it absorbs through the skin, and can build up in the body. I ended up in the hospital from too much exposure, and I was always careful to wash up after every use. I met a fellow once who ended up disabled from acetone poisoning, all from getting it on his skin. It screws up the central nervous system.
But, I do have some really heavy duty rubber gloves now, so I'm going to give this a try. P-B Blaster seems to work better than Liquid Wrench, but HomeBrew may be the new king.

Thanks for posting this!

Jerry

skeets · Sep 2, 2015

I remember a fellow in here that would heat the nuts up really warm and then put an old candle on it,, said the wax worked down through the rust and the nut came off easy

ipz2222 · Sep 3, 2015

bxray,, forget that spray bottle. The acetone will destroy the plastic. You might get by with a 60/40 mix.

chim · Sep 3, 2015

I saw this on one of the boards and used it last year on the bolts of my Ford tractor's muffler flange bolts. My mix is in an old-fashioned metal oil can (push the bottom and it flexes in and out). Gave it a few applications over several days and it worked well. I mixed the ATF & acetone in a glass jar and it didn't appear to really mix. The two liquids wanted to separate. It did work like a champ.

ShaunRH · Sep 3, 2015

chim said:
I saw this on one of the boards and used it last year on the bolts of my Ford tractor's muffler flange bolts. My mix is in an old-fashioned metal oil can (push the bottom and it flexes in and out). Gave it a few applications over several days and it worked well. I mixed the ATF & acetone in a glass jar and it didn't appear to really mix. The two liquids wanted to separate. It did work like a champ.

The acetone is a wetting agent, allowing the ATF to permeate down into the threads faster than any other compounds. It doesn't need to mix, it's something like flux is to solder or brazing.

The issue with the mix is how flammable it is. Both substances are highly flammable by themselves and together they burn with a very hot, long running fire. Use with caution and never on really hot surfaces.

Those tests are also likely static torque tests, like a torque wrench puts out. That's not how to remove a rusty nut or bolt. You use penetrant and shock together to break the rust bonds. That's why an impact wrench or cleaning the exposed threads and putting another nut on it and striking with a hammer will also break stubborn nuts or bolts loose.

You can always use the heat wrench but that's a hazard in and of itself so you need to be selective in the application of it.

bxray · Sep 3, 2015

ipz2222 said:
bxray,, forget that spray bottle. The acetone will destroy the plastic. You might get by with a 60/40 mix.

Thanks for the info.
I will get an oil can.
Or maybe two to keep them seporate.

The problem with the impact wrench is sometimes the bolt snaps first!
If this can lower the breakloose point to 50-75 fp I could do it woth ease!

Ray

ShaunRH · Sep 3, 2015

bxray said:
Thanks for the info.
I will get an oil can.
Or maybe two to keep them seporate.

The problem with the impact wrench is sometimes the bolt snaps first!
If this can lower the breakloose point to 50-75 fp I could do it woth ease!

Ray

Yes, impacts will do that if you go 'guns a blazin' out of the gate on them. Usually if you sneak up the power using air pressure it will break the nut or bolt loose before it hits the 'rip the head off' point. As with all things, exercise patience. Let the penetrant soak at least an hour, and if you can sneak it on the surface the day (or week!) before you know you'll be working on it, all the better.

I had rusted exhaust manifold studs and nuts. I knew I was going to tackle the job the next weekend. For a week, once a day I put PBBlaster on them. Came work time, all but one backed out with a gentle twist of the socket wrench, the one that didn't was the broken stud and it came out with just my fingers twisting it out (yup, was rusted solid a few days before).

Patience is everything with rusty nuts and bolts.

bxray · Sep 3, 2015

Yes, I understand that you need to work the impact.

But an Inch-ounce of prevention is worth more than a foot-pound of cure so I will go with the home brew and hedge my bets!

Ray

Diydave · Sep 3, 2015

My favorite is Kroil, mechanic's cologne... When I have the option of being near a torch of some sort, I heat the nut or bolt to about 300 F (another use for the IR thermometer!) and melt a bees wax candle against the seam where the 2 parts that are needing to be unscrewed from each other. The Wax wicks right into the joint...

rentthis · Sep 4, 2015

Dave, I have tried candle wax to no good result. Is beeswax better?

Diydave · Sep 4, 2015

rentthis said:
Dave, I have tried candle wax to no good result. Is beeswax better?

In my experience, yes...

Joisey · Sep 6, 2015

Has anyone tried Bluecreeper? www.bluecreeper.com

It's thin, like the acetone/ATF mix, but without the dangers. It's worked for me so far, and about as well as the acetone/ATF mix.

I ordered the $21.50 pack after my neighbor raved about how good it was. A little goes a long long way. You could probably buy the 8 ounce bottle and get the needle oilers from Brownells or elsewhere. One ounce in a needle oiler is plenty for quite a few rusted fasteners.

lamanated · Oct 14, 2015

My father who was a chemist, and made all kinds of stuff, even his own bug repellent and windshield washer fluid,, used Oil of wintergreen as a loosener, I've seen nothing better. Its the smell in penetrating fluids and in Ben Gay etc,, its behind the counter at Drug Stores. I used a hypodermic needle to drop it on, then put the rest back in the bottle, then wipe the needle's plunger end off to keep it from swelling. in Aviation, we use stuff called Mouse milk that works well also..

Mike9 · Oct 14, 2015

Great tip thanks. I use naphtha/motor mix oil for tapping, threading, cutting etc., but will get some acetone for my rusted three point parts. I ordered some new ones, but it's good to have working spares.

zippyslug31 · Oct 14, 2015

ShaunRH said:
The acetone is a wetting agent, allowing the ATF to permeate down into the threads faster than any other compounds.

Interesting. So based on this logic, and since ATF isn't engineered to be a rust buster, then why not try applying a little acetone to a rusted bolt followed by spraying one of the rust busting sprays?

I might have to try this...

DThrash · Oct 14, 2015

Just remember what acetone is for, it removes paint.

ShaunRH · Oct 15, 2015

zippyslug31 said:
Interesting. So based on this logic, and since ATF isn't engineered to be a rust buster, then why not try applying a little acetone to a rusted bolt followed by spraying one of the rust busting sprays?

I might have to try this...

It's not about 'rust busting' as far as I can tell. Rust is only a form of oxide (Iron, aluminum, etc.) You can't 'bust' the rust without risking damaging the metal in the process, so all the 'busters' I'm aware of are just lubricants, like the ATF is. None of them have the acids necessary to convert the rust back into non-oxide forms although I've seen claims of this, I've never actually seen one of the penetrants reduce the rust back into its components. It's still there, just lubricated. If someone knows of one that does this, I'd like to check it out.

Now if you put some CLR remover (Calcium, Lime, Rust) on it, sure you'll actually degrade the rust... and the base metal too. I'll do treatments like this for surface rusting conditions in very rapid sequence with a neutralizing agent and an oil or wax finish to prevent flash re-rusting. I would never do this to a bolt or threads though.

So the idea is to get lubricants into the channels, so the drag created by the rust is minimized and the rust can be broken up with impact or heat or just torsional force. Rust is actually really weak stuff, but enough of it with a confined channel (like threads) can stop a bolt cold.

If I've got this all wrong, someone please correct me!

Black Mud Farm · Oct 15, 2015

I guess this is my first post? maybe,.. cant remember that's bad,... Anyhow the acetone and atf works good I have the Kno Kroil as well. Just remember to keep the mixture tightly sealed when you are done or it will evaporate faster than zippo lighter fluid. The tin oil can is a great way to use it but don't leave it in there or all you will have is atf. Good luck Yep first one,.. Hello all !

Rust Busters...

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