Info on newer engines, DPF, DOC, tier 4, etc

sheepfarmer · Jan 27, 2015

I thought I'd start a thread to compile information on these newer engines because it has been a culture shock to go from a gasoline engine with carburetor, manual choke, and gravity flow for the fuel to these newfangled (and quite wonderful) Kubota products. From the look of several posts I am not the only one making this 70 year jump in technology.

I have made several posts to get some general categories going, and then if folks add to the info with their posts, I can move the information up by cut and paste. This would get the key info at the top of the thread for anyone first logging on. Suggestions? Ideas?

I'll add links to threads and discussions as they appear, but feel free to add any that you think would help someone else out.

Check back for new info!
Please help out if you can!

sheepfarmer · Jan 27, 2015

Definitions:

DOC--diesel oxidation catalyst
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/diesel/documents/420f10031.pdf
http://www.nettinc.com/information/emissions-faq/what-is-a-diesel-oxidation-catalyst

DPF--diesel particulate filter

EGR--exhaust gas recycling

reformer--new technology, a part which may be associated structurally with the DPF or which may replace it, reduces NOx and replaces with hydrogen and carbon monoxide

active regeneration--process by which the soot particles in the DPF are burned off, usually computer controlled, includes running the engine at higher RPM to generate more heat, engine air flow is reduced to keep up exhaust temperature. Can be done while tractor continues to work.

passive regeneration--soot particles are burned off any time the tractor is working at an adequate RPM and load to raise the exhaust temperature

There is a good description of these devices and what they do at this link

http://www.equipmentworld.com/maintenance-24/

And

http://www.constructionequipment.com/what-tier-4-final-brings

And for specific Kubota information: cdn-0.psndealer.com/e2/dealersite/images/.../CleanPowerforToday.pdf

The SCR DEF method builds on some of the above methods and adds another catalytic chamber as well as the addition of a reaction evoked with diesel exhaust fluid

SCR--selective catalytic reduction
DEF, diesel exhaust fluid, to convert nitrous oxide to harmles nitrogen gas and water. DEF is a non-toxic solution of urea and water. The DEF is sprayed into the hot exhaust from a separate tank.

Here is a description of an SCR DEF system:

http://www.dieselforum.org/about-clean-diesel/what-is-scr

Some new Kubota engines use the SCR/DEF system. http://www.agweb.com/article/take-a-virtual-tour-of-kubotas-high-horsepower-tractor-aimee-cope/

sheepfarmer · Jan 27, 2015

Specific Engine Information

Kubota has made several different engine types in response to the environmental requirements, so one engine meeting Tier 4 standards does not necessarily look like another. To find out what your engine has, look at the code on the specifications page in the owner's manual. Under "model" on the table will be a code, the L3560 (mine) has the following code:

D1803-CR-E4 Under that is written Direct injection, vertical water-cooled, 4-cycle diesel

D specifies 3 cylinders, 4 cyclinders have V
1803 --first two digits, e.g. 18 is displacement; 03 refers to a series of engines, Kubota 03 series
CR is common rail method of carrying fuel and injection type, here CR also signifies direct injection; could be DI if it is direct injection without the common rail.
blank, no T, means this engine does not have turbo
E4 describes emission type, in this case tier 4

This link goes to the complete code so you can see what it means for your tractor:
http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/engines/engine-model-name-identification

Another one of the general engine types that Kubota has put into some of the new tractors is called E-TVCS (Three vortex combustion system)
These engines have a globular combustion chamber to get the air and fuel to swirl around and mix more effectively.
http://www.i-m-a.de/en/kubota_techn.html

Here is a link to a comparison of some of the recent Kubota engines, including some new ones that will get along without the DPF.

https://www.dieselnet.com/news/2014/07kubota.php

When is this useful? when you want to see if a post applies to your tractor or not. For example it appears as though the direct injection, common rail, electronically controlled ignition tractors are easier to start than older models.

sheepfarmer · Jan 27, 2015

Kubota is making the effort to keep customers with tier 4 engines as happy as possible (editorial note, thanks to Federal regulations). There is a 5 year warranty on the emissions related components that extends to all the new tier 4 tractors, at least according to the pdf brochure referenced above (Clean Power Today, Kubota).

There have been some problems mostly associated with cold weather this season (2014-15), and recalls were issued around December. Other recalls come out from time to time, so it is worth your while to call or stop by to see your dealer and ask them to run the serial number of your tractor to see if any are outstanding and need to be done.

Recalls: Model # and parts affected

1. B3350: thermostat and computer reprogram, to fix regeneration problem in cold weather

2. L3301 and L3901: replace air breather due to possible freeze problem

3. L--60 series: "Closed crankcase vent" may freeze in cold weather
In the L3560 the fix was to replace the breather, the breather tubes, and the oil separator. http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17918

I have been told that the kits to fix the L3301, 3901, and the L3560 are the same.

4. L3301, L3901, L4701: there are several important bulletins and campaigns described in this thread involving the engines and the frames of 2014 and 2015 models. http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22305.

5. L and M (except for newest M5 and M6) tractors with dpf filters have a campaign (2017) to additionally ensure against freezing of the lines to and from the crank case breather valve. There is some additional information in this thread:
http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29732

sheepfarmer · Jan 27, 2015

User experiences with Tier 4 tractors:

Many folks have said that someone has told them to run their tractors with the dpf filters at high rpm to avoid having them go through the active regeneration cycle often. There is nothing in the owner's manuals to indicate that frequent regeneration is "bad" per se, but it can be inconvenient. Diesel engines in general work optimally when loaded. However the high rpm rule should be balanced with an eye to safety. Some tasks can't be accomplished safely without dialing back the rpm.

Unlike older diesel engines, these new ones in the tier 4 lineup are easy to start, so rather than leave an engine idling for a few minutes while you do something else, shut it down.

Video describing operation of Tier IV tractors using Kubota 3901 as an illustration; regeneration information:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Ya1mp4cO0

MX 5200 first regeneration
http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19639

2014 L3301, 3901,and 3560, discussion of optimal rpm and regeneration: http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19250 this thread continues in 2015 with information on fuels and comparison of the regen cycles.

2014 L4060 and other models, discussion of tier 4 and dpf pros and cons http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15131

2014 B3350 http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16917

2014-2015 B3350 regeneration/dpf problems
http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13628

2015 B3350 regeneration failing to start/dpf problem
http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22724

2014 L3560 vs L4479 http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18083 size for snow blowing and dealer experience.

2013-2015 M8560 two owners' experiences with dpf regeneration times and cpu issues
http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12108

2015 60 series, experiences with dpf, http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11573

2015 L3560 error code P2414 , EGR sensors report overheating. http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21391

also see post #10 below for links to threads on specific problems.

Cold Weather Starting:

so far no posts with descriptions of starting problems with the new B3350, L3301, 3901, L--60 series tractors.

http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17776&highlight=cold+weather+start
http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17891&highlight=cold+weather+start&page=1

This is a quote from a somewhat dated technical bulletin about Kubota industrial engines, not sure what the technology is, but it may explain why some of the newer engines are easier to start.

quick start-up
The Super-pre-heat-system that belongs as standard equipment significantly shortens the pre-heat span and ensures that the engine starts up without problems even at low outside temperatures.

Anyone know what it is?

Gatormark · Feb 4, 2015

TIER is why I purchased my bota before the FEDS could shove this garbage down my throat. We have citrus growers here who can no longer troubleshoot theyre pump units becasue the FEDS and theyre damn overreach into our lives. I am a true American but I hate the present administration and the FED govt as a whole.

ShaunRH · Feb 4, 2015

I think Sheepfarmer is doing her best to organize some data in these threads so we may want to keep the side commentary to a minimum, no matter how appropriate it may be to the subject. Not picking on anyone, just pointing things out as a courtesy to Sheepfarmer.

blank102 · Feb 6, 2015

My dealer bought 300 pre tier 4 Kubotas because they knew they'd have bugs.
I was lucky to get one.

And kudos to Sheepfarmer for the research!

ShaunBlake · Feb 6, 2015

ShaunRH said:
I think Sheepfarmer is doing her best to organize some data in these threads so we may want to keep the side commentary to a minimum, no matter how appropriate it may be to the subject. Not picking on anyone, just pointing things out as a courtesy to Sheepfarmer.

Prolly isn't going to happen. Prolly lots of folk won't see your post. However, it is very valuable and should be isolated. It deserves a place in the Articles section. She might find Vic amenable to the idea.

sheepfarmer · Feb 6, 2015

Thanks blank 102, you just gave me an idea for another "page" for this thread. You and your dealer are reasonable in assuming that any new technology tends to be buggy. The newer tractors are still under warranty so folks are less likely to write to the forum asking for help. But they may still read the forum posts.

So I would like to encourage anyone having any kind of problem with a 2013, 2014, or 2015 Kubota to start a thread describing it, especially an engine related problem, and how it was handled by your dealer. I can then put a link to it on this post.

An example of an extremely helpful thread was one by Cave Creek Ray on a problem with the PTO valve on his L3800, and which has occurred on several other 3800's. http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17412
(This is a non tier 4 tractor but it is a well documented thread with detailed pictures.)

L3901, L3301 problems possibly associated with cold weather and freezing of components of EGR system :

L3901 Error Code p3001 http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18361
L3901 Engine Runaway http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18317
L3301 Error code, engine wouldn't stop http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18404

Other situation error codes:

L3560 Error code P2414 http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21391
L3301, 3901 Error code P0336, engine rpm drops or appears to drop below critical level http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?p=182254#post182254

skeets · Feb 7, 2015

Sheepfarmer,, I think you have done a wonderful job so far!! Im not sure where your getting your information but I told me dealer about some stuff you posted and got,,, HELL,, we never heard of that

and after they went looking,, it was ohhh yeah we know,, yeah right,,lol,, ya done good !!

sheepfarmer · Feb 7, 2015

Gatormark said:
We have citrus growers here who can no longer troubleshoot theyre pump units .....

Gatormark brings up a valuable point, that is, most people on this forum like to take care of their own equipment. It is efficient, saves money, and is generally rewarding (if all goes well anyway

). I am not sure how different fixing the newer models is from the older ones. I can imagine anything with a computer chip or chips is a pain, but they have been in our cars and trucks for a long time, so maybe a lot of folks have the diagnostic tools to do some of it. I can also imagine Kubota may make the software pretty inaccessable.

I am not sure which pumps Gatormark was referring to, but I am assuming fuel injection?

Can someone comment here about working on on the models pre tier 4, say the last 10 years, versus brand new? What tools and equipment does it take?

Daren Todd · Feb 7, 2015

sheepfarmer said:
Gatormark brings up a valuable point, that is, most people on this forum like to take care of their own equipment. It is efficient, saves money, and is generally rewarding (if all goes well anyway ). I am not sure how different fixing the newer models is from the older ones. I can imagine anything with a computer chip or chips is a pain, but they have been in our cars and trucks for a long time, so maybe a lot of folks have the diagnostic tools to do some of it. I can also imagine Kubota may make the software pretty inaccessable.

I am not sure which pumps Gatormark was referring to, but I am assuming fuel injection?

Can someone comment here about working on on the models pre tier 4, say the last 10 years, versus brand new? What tools and equipment does it take?

Most of the time it's not much different then working on the older stuff. A big help is if the newer ones have a display that gives you the codes and having a code list for that model. I'm not sure about the kubota codes, but other manufacturers use the same codes for there 20 horse engines up to there large hi horsepower engines. So by adding a little common sense to the equation you can usually be able to handle figuring it out. And sometimes with the codes it makes it easier to diagnose an issue.

Where it can get frustrating for an end user but easy for a dealer is diagnosing a temp sensor failure. On some motors they have multiple sensors of the same design and one code for the whole lot

Dealer has it easy where they can hook a lap top up and pull up each individual sensor and see what the reading is, and disconnect the sensors till the one with the bum reading falls off. where the rest of us, it's a systematic swapping of one sensor till the code clears.

Certain sensors like an egr valve that needs to be calibrated are a dealer only fix. Since you have to calibrate with the computer. Seals and the rest of the mechanics are buisiness as usual.

Grateful11 · Feb 9, 2015

sheepfarmer said:
Specific Engine Information

Kubota has made several different engine types in response to the environmental requirements, so one engine meeting Tier 4 standards does not necessarily look like another. To find out what your engine has, look at the code on the specifications page in the owner's manual. Under "model" on the table will be a code, the L3560 (mine) has the following code:

D1803-CR-E4 Under that is written Direct injection, vertical water-cooled, 4-cycle diesel

D specifies 3 cylinders, 4 cyclinders have V
1803 --first two digits, e.g. 18 is displacement; 03 refers to a series of engines, Kubota 03 series
CR is common rail method of carrying fuel and injection type, here CR also signifies direct injection; could be DI if it is direct injection without the common rail.
blank, no T, means this engine does not have turbo
E4 describes emission type, in this case tier 4

This link goes to the complete code so you can see what it means for your tractor:
http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/engines/engine-model-name-identification

Another one of the general engine types that Kubota has put into some of the new tractors is called E-TVCS (Three vortex combustion system)
These engines have a globular combustion chamber to get the air and fuel to swirl around and mix more effectively.
http://www.i-m-a.de/en/kubota_techn.html

Here is a link to a comparison of some of the recent Kubota engines, including some new ones that will get along without the DPF.

https://www.dieselnet.com/news/2014/07kubota.php

When is this useful? when you want to see if a post applies to your tractor or not. For example it appears as though the direct injection, common rail, electronically controlled ignition tractors are easier to start than older models.

That is very interesting information on the engines passing the EPA std. without the use of a DPF but I can't imagine all the reengineering Kubota would have to do to put these in their tractors that already have all the sensors and programming that monitors the DPF and getting rid of the Regen cycle and all the other stuff. It would be great if they would do this. I think they would see sells go up. This engine here matches the numbers listed for many of the Grand L's: "V2403-CR-TIE4 47.9 kW (65.1 hp) @ 2700 rpm DOC Turbo inter-cooled", no DPF needed.

It will have a DOC(Diesel Oxidation Catalyst) only. Basically it appears to be a Catalytic Converter.

Diesel Oxidation Catalyst
http://www.nettinc.com/information/emissions-faq/what-is-a-diesel-oxidation-catalyst

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/diesel/documents/420f10031.pdf

I have to wonder if these will only be used in industrial applications. One dealer we're talking to about an L6060 is one of the largest in NC. I'm going to ask him if he's heard anything about this.

sheepfarmer · Feb 9, 2015

Grateful11, I have exactly the same questions as you do. I think I saw a post from someone that said they had heard from a dealer that these new engines wouldn't be in tractors soon, but the similarity between the engine described and that in the L6060 is so striking that one wonders. Please let us know what you find out from your dealer.

Thank you for the links to the DOC information, I'll copy them up to the top of this thread.

nickelplated5s · Feb 10, 2015

sheepfarmer said:
Definitions:

passive regeneration--soot particles are burned off any time the tractor is working at an adequate RPM

It's the EGT not the RPM's that help with passive regens. Putting a load on the motor raises EGT's. Running down the drive empty won't do much. It will be interesting to see orange failures, if any, compared to highway vehicles.

sheepfarmer · Feb 10, 2015

nickelplated5s said:
It's the EGT not the RPM's that help with passive regens. Putting a load on the motor raises EGT's. Running down the drive empty won't do much..

Yup. The Exhaust Gas Temp is what is important to regeneration, and we have been assuming a relationship between rpm and and EGT. That relationship is probably not linear, with load being important too, but rpm is what we can see on the dash. Thanks for pointing it out, and I'll try to clarify it above.

North Idaho Wolfman · Feb 10, 2015

sheepfarmer said:
Can someone comment here about working on on the models pre tier 4, say the last 10 years, versus brand new? What tools and equipment does it take?

I personally don't think it's much of a difference, takes just a little more information, and in most cases it's easier.

Old tractors won't tell you a whole lot and when they do it's through a noise, spitting fluid at ya, throwing a part up or and at ya, or just up and dying!

New tractors will point you to the area of the problem usually earlier than it does damage, and even sometimes it will jump up and down like a nerd in math class with the answer to the question what is PI/r 2 x 15.5 .

Fro65 · Feb 10, 2015

North Idaho Wolfman said:
I personally don't think it's much of a difference, takes just a little more information, and in most cases it's easier.

Old tractors won't tell you a whole lot and when they do it's through a noise, spitting fluid at ya, throwing a part up or and at ya, or just up and dying!

New tractors will point you to the area of the problem usually earlier than it does damage, and even sometimes it will jump up and down like a nerd in math class with the answer to the question what is PI/r 2 x 15.5 .

Thank you Wolfman, I have been hoping to see an optimistic view expressed. Seeing how your knowledge and advice is well respected here, maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

nickelplated5s · Feb 11, 2015

Wolfman or Sheepfarmer (you'ld think they wouldn't get along) can probably answer this;
Bosch makes the HPFP, high pressure fuel pump, for a lot of different diesels. I'm not sure what's in the T4 Kubota's but they're common rail, DI also as pointed out above. The Bosch pumps use diesel as their lubricant and bad fuel or water in fuel will crater them. Around $ 12K in my eight cylinder Ford.

DEF tank will have it's own pump and a heating system for cold weather op's. I've had emission related problems about every 10K miles with my truck - admittedly from those boards I'm an aberration.

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