PTO or engine trash pump?

North Idaho Wolfman · Jun 26, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

William1 said:
I have a low area that in heavy rain, fills with water, about 1/2 acre I'd like to fill it in (so it does not fill in but runs off). I've been dumping organic and inorganic material in it for 15 years. Plenty of room.
There is a area far from where I'll be pumping into that is filled with rock and a drain tile and filter fabric that drains the area back to the pond. So I'll be pumping in one area, the water will filter through all the existing ground (about 18" of wood from a chipper that is 20' wide) material and filter out.

Good to here, I've know a couple of people that either pumped it into a river or a storm drain. One got slapped with a fine so big his grand children will feel it, and the other was bankrupt in less than a year!
Yes both were licensed contractors.

William1 · Jun 26, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

Daren Todd said:
I'm a Honda pump and generator dealer I would say I could make you a great deal on the $1500 honda Slightly used rental

Actually, I had a customer in a pinch, run down and buy one of the $300 3" pumps from tractor supply and had really good luck with it. Multiquip is pretty good and uses the honda motor. But probably over your budget. Stay away from Tsurumi. They use a Honda motor, but the pump ends garbage.

Most of the different brands are pretty much identical on the pump ends of those smaller pumps. So as long as you stay away from the nylon impellor, you should be good The nylon impellers are for clean water only and any course material (rocks, sand, ect...) will wear it out pretty fast.

So TSC is Acceptable? I figure if it can do this one big job then a few small jobs when I allow less build up will be all the life I need from it.
I figure use will be such that it sits for years unused and so I'll have to drain the fuel and fog the engine to keep it from rusting out from lack of use.
Anything special that needs to be done to the pumps to maintain and store them?

This one is an LCT engine (and cheap cost) Almost right next to TSC is a an LCT parts depot....

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/red-lion-3-in-aluminum-trash-pump-208cc?cm_vc=-10005

William1 · Jun 26, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

North Idaho Wolfman said:
Good to here, I've know a couple of people that either pumped it into a river or a storm drain. One got slapped with a fine so big his grand children will feel it, and the other was bankrupt in less than a year!
Yes both were licensed contractors.

My brother used to be one of the top attorneys for the EPA in DC. I have heard plenty of stories from him. Easy to go after the little guy and let the big companies slide, less legal battle.

The 'routing' will be pump, to 'landfill/swampy area/filtered and back to the stream that feeds the lake.

Not going to do this:

Though the resemblance to me is startling, right down to the clothing...........

Daren Todd · Jun 26, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

William1 said:
So TSC is Acceptable? I figure if it can do this one big job then a few small jobs when I allow less build up will be all the life I need from it.
I figure use will be such that it sits for years unused and so I'll have to drain the fuel and fog the engine to keep it from rusting out from lack of use.
Anything special that needs to be done to the pumps to maintain and store them?

This one is an LCT engine (and cheap cost) Almost right next to TSC is a an LCT parts depot....
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/red-lion-3-in-aluminum-trash-pump-208cc?cm_vc=-10005

Anti seize your drain and fill plugs on the pump end as soon as you get it. Nickel or copper will work for it. At a minimum, grease the threads if you don't have anti seize. Most have aluminum casings so they are prone to corrode in the threads. Even with a plastic fill or drain plug. Let it sit for a year after use with out the anti seize or grease on the plugs, and they will bond to the aluminum.

For long term storage, drain the pump end. If it freezes, it will crack the volute. Other then that, it's drain the gas out of it, and fog the motor. If you want, you can always pull the front cover on the volute, and give it a light coating of 30 weight non detergent oil (most bar and chain oil is usually 30wt nd). Detergent oil can mess with the mechanical seal in it.

William1 · Jun 26, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

Daren Todd said:
Anti seize your drain and fill plugs on the pump end as soon as you get it. Nickel or copper will work for it. At a minimum, grease the threads if you don't have anti seize. Most have aluminum casings so they are prone to corrode in the threads. Even with a plastic fill or drain plug. Let it sit for a year after use with out the anti seize or grease on the plugs, and they will bond to the aluminum.

For long term storage, drain the pump end. If it freezes, it will crack the volute. Other then that, it's drain the gas out of it, and fog the motor. If you want, you can always pull the front cover on the volute, and give it a light coating of 30 weight non detergent oil (most bar and chain oil is usually 30wt nd). Detergent oil can mess with the mechanical seal in it.

Yeah, I am a big believer in anti-seize or Loctite (when called for)! I do a lot of bolting stainless to alloy and exhaust system work and go through pints of Permatex. I also know it is better for a plug or bolt to fall out Vs. over tightened and cracking a housing.

Thanks for the tip about using bar and chain oil for pump storage. I never would of thought of that!

So the TSC pump should do the trick?

Tooljunkie · Jun 26, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

The few pumps i winterized, i pull the fill/drain plugs and throw in a bag which i tie to starter rope. These were 2" honda pumps.
As it is where i worked.no sooner i winterized pump and someone would use the pump. One glance and i know it was used as plugs get left in pump housing. Rinse and repeat. what gets me is pumps got loaned out to pretty much anybody that walked in. Who knows what went through them.

Vac truck would work well for cleanup, but expensive and very heavy. Ruts would then be an issue.

William1 · Jun 27, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

Tooljunkie said:
The few pumps i winterized, i pull the fill/drain plugs and throw in a bag which i tie to starter rope. These were 2" honda pumps.
As it is where i worked.no sooner i winterized pump and someone would use the pump. One glance and i know it was used as plugs get left in pump housing. Rinse and repeat. what gets me is pumps got loaned out to pretty much anybody that walked in. Who knows what went through them.

Vac truck would work well for cleanup, but expensive and very heavy. Ruts would then be an issue.

That also gets me back to a crew and paying them for two days. Shame I have no buddies in the septic biz, I could ply them with food and beer for a weekend. Fortunately, under my lawn is a old road. I've had double tandems drive over it with nearly no ill effects other than sad, mushed grass that bouncing back in a month. Also, in Central VA, by August the 'dirt' (clay really) becomes as hard as cement.

I'll spend some more time dwelling on the issue then measuring to get an actual amount of piping needed. Fortunately, the real length will be discharge. 100' I imagine, perhaps more.
Suction, 50' of 3" will probably do it. I was thinking about necking down to 2-1/2" and running a 4' (or so) length of Sch 40 with some sort of handles and pad the part of the hose that will be on my shoulder.

My current method, will take six months of filthy work. I am hoping a small pump will change that to 30 days of not so filthy work.

Upstream, I am also doing some work and a pump to divert the water might be useful (lame effort at justification).

Please, keep the advice coming!

Hassman · Jun 27, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

For whatever it is worth I have one of the 3" Honda pumps (Honda GPX 160 engine) and I am really happy with it.
Here in Thailand that pump new cost me around $340 so I don't think it is much more expensive elsewhere in the world.
Honda has a little program you can download where you input the overall length and diameter of your piping and the head and it will calculate the actual GPM from the pump.

My pump will happily suck up pebbles and other stuff and jam it in my filters (I use it for irrigation), no apparent damage to the impeller (aluminium).

It is one of the best pieces of equipment I have ever bought.

bucktail · Jun 27, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

If you know someone who runs a livestock operation that runs liquid manure, they'll have basically the same set up as a vac truck, but it's pulled behind a tractor. The vane pump runs off the PTO. Your bota will be too small.

William1 · Jun 28, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

Daren Todd said:
Anti seize your drain and fill plugs on the pump end as soon as you get it. Nickel or copper will work for it. At a minimum, grease the threads if you don't have anti seize. Most have aluminum casings so they are prone to corrode in the threads. Even with a plastic fill or drain plug. Let it sit for a year after use with out the anti seize or grease on the plugs, and they will bond to the aluminum.

For long term storage, drain the pump end. If it freezes, it will crack the volute. Other then that, it's drain the gas out of it, and fog the motor. If you want, you can always pull the front cover on the volute, and give it a light coating of 30 weight non detergent oil (most bar and chain oil is usually 30wt nd). Detergent oil can mess with the mechanical seal in it.

Daren,
Just got a Harbor Freight catalog. They have a 3" pump that will pass .9" solids for $300
http://www.harborfreight.com/65-hp-212cc-3-in-gas-engine-full-trash-pump-264-gpm-69746.html
Should I go for it?

Daren Todd · Jun 28, 2016

PTO trash pump

William1 said:
Daren,

Just got a Harbor Freight catalog. They have a 3" pump that will pass .9" solids for $300

http://www.harborfreight.com/65-hp-212cc-3-in-gas-engine-full-trash-pump-264-gpm-69746.html

Should I go for it?

I would pass on it just from looking at the picture. And the reason is where they have the intake located in the center of the back cover. That style pump has to be filled with water before using. The one from HF in the link relies totally on the flapper to hold the water inside the volute after you prime it. It doesn't take much for those little flappers to develop a little warp to them. Then your in a race, to get the volute filled, the fill plug installed, and the motor started, before the water runs out the suction line

Look for one where the intake goes in at the top of the back cover instead like in the picture below. This way when the flapper fails, it will still hold enough water to keep a prime.

Here's how the intake and discharge should be set up.

William1 · Jun 28, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

Daren Todd said:
I would pass on it just from looking at the picture. And the reason is where they have the intake located in the center of the back cover. That style pump has to be filled with water before using. The one from HF in the link relies totally on the flapper to hold the water inside the volute after you prime it. It doesn't take much for those little flappers to develop a little warp to them. Then your in a race, to get the volute filled, the fill plug installed, and the motor started, before the water runs out the suction line

........

Look for one where the intake goes in at the top of the back cover instead like in the picture below. This way when the flapper fails, it will still hold enough water to keep a prime.

Here's how the intake and discharge should be set up.
....

Makes sense but I am looking to 'do it on the cheap. The HF pump is more than half the cost.
Could I not just ensure the suction hose is a foot above the pump (rest it on a milk crate or something?) or even get a couple of elbows and a 12" piece of pipe? I'd think every 90 degree turn has a big effect on flow too, so a gradual 'S' of the suction pipe going from the pump over a crate than then down should be less of a restriction? Just thoughts from a clueless guy. My real knowledge about pumps are super soakers

My lift from the top of the water to where the pump will be is about 3', so I'd be increasing that about one more feet. Depth from the top of the water to the maximum depth I be 'sucking will be no more than four feet.

Daren Todd · Jun 28, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

William1 said:
Makes sense but I am looking to 'do it on the cheap. The HF pump is more than half the cost.
Could I not just ensure the suction hose is a foot above the pump (rest it on a milk crate or something?) or even get a couple of elbows and a 12" piece of pipe? I'd think every 90 degree turn has a big effect on flow too, so a gradual 'S' of the suction pipe going from the pump over a crate than then down should be less of a restriction? Just thoughts from a clueless guy. My real knowledge about pumps are super soakers

My lift from the top of the water to where the pump will be is about 3', so I'd be increasing that about one more feet. Depth from the top of the water to the maximum depth I be 'sucking will be no more than four feet.

That would work fine

William1 · Jun 28, 2016

Re: PTO trash pump

Daren Todd said:
That would work fine

Thanks for the confirmation. If I were planning to use the pump a lot, I'd pony up (like I did getting the BX) and do it right. Milek crate and zip ties it is!

All my hand tools are SnapOns and the cost has paid for themselves over constant use for forty years. But for a tool I'll (hopefully) rarely use, I hate to spend a lot of money. No kids to leave them to and none of my relations have kids that are interested in any of this stuff, so when I die, it will be auctioned off. I still have my grandfathers tool kits that came with his Pierce Silver Arrows. Nice, really nice tools. The legacy will die with me. Though because I do not need the pump very much, it will probably still run like a champ. I have a big pressure washer I should get rid of too, 3600 psi Generac. I should sell it and get a 1,000 psi Karcher electric for the amount I use it. Hey, I could use the space to store the pump.........

William1 · Jul 9, 2016

I've got the pump, now I need hose. Abut 65' on the suction side and 175' on the discharge side. Total rise is 25' at most.
My little helper, the 12 YO girl from next door stopped by and wants to know when she can work for me! She wants to earn money!

Any suggestions of where to buy the hose?

Daren Todd · Jul 9, 2016

Check with equipment rental companies for used hoses.

Also a simple google search for hose companies in your area.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

William1 · Jul 9, 2016

Daren Todd said:
Check with equipment rental companies for used hoses.

Also a simple google search for hose companies in your area.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So far, only these guys seem to sell hose in long lengths.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pr...ose-kit-with-attachments-3-in-id?cm_vc=-10005

I'm thinking to order it custom made Vs. buying 3 'sets' from TSC
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pr...ose-kit-with-attachments-3-in-id?cm_vc=-10005

Daren Todd · Jul 9, 2016

I'm gonna recommend getting the suction in 20ft sticks. Any thing longer is a logistical nightmare trying to haul it. And if you kink it, it's not gonna hold out very long before it collapses.

20' sticks can be horseshoed in the back of a truck with out kinking.

On your blue lay flat, 100' lengths aren't bad to handle. Over that, they get heavy!!!! Plus the diameter rolled up can be a challenge to handle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

William1 · Jul 9, 2016

Daren Todd said:
I'm gonna recommend getting the suction in 20ft sticks. Any thing longer is a logistical nightmare trying to haul it. And if you kink it, it's not gonna hold out very long before it collapses.

20' sticks can be horseshoed in the back of a truck with out kinking.

On your blue lay flat, 100' lengths aren't bad to handle. Over that, they get heavy!!!! Plus the diameter rolled up can be a challenge to handle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the advice, makes sense. I'll spend a bit extra on couplings but save on frustration.
So three 20' suction, two 100' discharge.

I was thinking about making a rigid 'intake tube' from 2 three foot sections of pvc Shc40 and use that (perhaps fashioned with handles) to jab at the muck with the hose over my padded shoulder.

I really appreciate the advice and suggestions.

torch · Jul 10, 2016

William1 said:
I was thinking about making a rigid 'intake tube' from 2 three foot sections of pvc Shc40 and use that (perhaps fashioned with handles) to jab at the muck with the hose over my padded shoulder.

It's a trash pump, not a vacuum truck. It's designed to pump water with the occasional solid, provided the solid is no larger than the holes in the strainer basket. Trying to pump the mud at the bottom of the pond will just cavitate the pump. Lifting the strainer basket out of the water will lose the prime.

In fact, lifting the basket near the surface will often cause a whirlpool that will make you lose prime. To get down near the last few inches you need something to break the vortex. Traditionally one would use a "low level strainer" (google it for images), however, a floating ball tethered above the end of the basket can work almost as well and is much cheaper.

PTO or engine trash pump?

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